A little worried (SPN - related)

[feliciakw]

Okay, so. In wandering around the 'Net this morning, I ran across something that . . . doesn't really surprise me. I found that Lisa is going to be what I think is the season finale. Well, since I've said all along that until there is a definitive break between Lisa and Dean there will always be the possibility that she can come back, I'm not surprised that she'll be back for one more episode.

But I've also been seeing spoilers here and there (before I can "move along, nothing to see here") that there are going to be two (yes, I've seen that specific number) unexpected deaths in the season finale. And I'm dreading that they will be Lisa and Ben. (Of course, the fact that I'm expecting it means that they aren't "unexpected," so maybe I'm wrong.) I know a lot of people want Dean to regress revert back to his womanizing, random hook-ups, and one-night stands. The only circumstances under which I can see that happening (regardless of what Jensen himself says. Man, would I like to sit down and talk character with him) is if Lisa is totally removed from the equation, either by death or by marriage.

I'm quite worried that Lisa and Ben will be killed off for the sake of convenience, with no greater purpose than to eliminate them from the story. I can see where the writers might think that the Dean/Lisa storyline needs definitive resolution, but I hope, I hope that they give their send-off meaning. Ellen and Jo might have died in a losing battle, but they died protecting their friends, and that's not nothing. If the writers do gank Lisa and Ben, I hope there's a better reason--a character developing, character revealing reason--than simply "we got bored with it. Let's get rid of them."

*deep breath*

Okay, just writing that out makes me feel better. But if it does happen, I warn you: Do not be surprised if I become sullen and/or cranky and/or ranty. I really kinda hate don't like that Dean can never be happy or fulfill his dreams.

Of course, if Dean and Sam cease to exist, none of this is a problem, right?

(Oh!!! And then the season opener next season would be something along the lines of It's a Wonderful Life. What would happen to the world if Sam and Dean were never born?)

Comments

[ficwriter1966.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's Lisa and Ben - primarily because the quote says "UNEXPECTED deaths." Half the fandom would love to see Lisa and Ben slaughtered in some garish, bloody way, so you couldn't call it "unexpected" - I think even *Dean* has it in the back of his mind that something could happen to them at any moment.

I'm going to keep my money on your proposal that the "unexpected deaths" are Sam and Dean ceasing to exist (or being shoved so far back into the past that they can't be retrieved, and everyone believes they're dead).

This show is going to end up so far from its original concept, you won't be able to see it with the Hubble Telescope.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Precisely why I'm holding out hope that Lisa and Ben won't get ganked. Still, I hope that if they do decide to finally, definitively write them out, that it will be with purpose.

Ya know?

[kimmer1227.livejournal.com]

Maybe they mean ep 21 instead of 22. Jensen mentioned them being in 21, his heavy episode, but maybe they're in both. I try to avoid specific spoiler stuff, but can't not watch the shiny in interviews.

The more I think about your "cease to exist" theory, the more I like it. Which I kinda hate because that kind of leaning forward leads to disappointment when things don't turn out the way you hope/want, which is why I'm generally against being spoiled out the ass. You can't help but have expectations or preconceived notions about things.

I'm at the point of the season where I'm gonna stop watching Directors Cuts and early video snippets. Do you know how HARD it was to NOT look at the western footage released earlier this week! It was brutal!!!!! But I wanna have some suspense and surprise about some things, you know.

IS IT FRIDAY YET?!

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

I don't' know what ep number it was, I just saw the title. It makes sense that they would be in the Dean-centric ep, and not the Sam-centric one.

You know I try to avoid spoilers, but I'm so totally with you on not being able to resist the shiny in con vids. (Interviews I can speed through and only get snatches.)

I've never been one to watch directors cuts or preview clips. I figure we only get 42 minutes of new show each week, and I don't want to already know how 2 - 3 minutes of that is going to play. :-)

This Friday will be a very busy one for me (after which, I'll probably have more thespic ponderings), but my mom has assured me that she and I will find time to watch Show. Heh.

[ann-tara.livejournal.com]

I know a lot of people want Dean to regress revert back to his womanizing, random hook-ups, and one-night stands.

Honestly, I blame the show for wanting to regress Dean backward, and I'll leave it at that.

I think the confusion about the "finale" comes from the fact that the CW was initially advertising 6:21/6:22 as a two-part finale when they bumped it to make room for the two-hour Smallville finale the week before. Kripke, OTOH, made it perfectly clear at the Paleyfest that 6:21 has nothing to do with 6:22, and wished it wasn't airing on the same night.

Lisa and Ben are only scheduled to show up in 6:21, and I'm anticipating nothing more than another eye-rolling round of "No, this time we're really over, as opposed to the last three times we said we were over."

But I doubt they'll kill off the Braedens - I don't think any of the producers care enough about them to kill them off, not even Gamble.

Your idea about the Winchesters never existing at the end of the sixth season is an interesting one. Goodness knows killing them off for the gazillioneth time would frankly just bore the audience into a stupor since it's not surprising at all.

Of course, if they get a seventh season, they still have to bring them back into play, unless the seventh season is going to be a year-long AU with the Winchesters existing in a different 'verse from the one they were living in before they were extinguished from that reality.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

"No, this time we're really over, as opposed to the last three times we said we were over."

This is interesting, because I've never gotten the impression that they've ever said, "It's over."

"We can't be in this with you." That's really vague. Can't be in what? The life? The relationship with Sam? What?

And the whole exchange of what does Lisa want/what does Dean want/Dean walking out on his family . . . that seemed very open ended to me, especially when Dean is still talking about Ben and Lisa in the present tense: "I've got a heartbroken kid and a woman who's so pissed at me . . . " He still thinks of them as his (his kid, his woman).

Lisa as much as said she's in love with Dean, and Dean is obviously longing and pining for Lisa. That's why I think that it will take death or marriage to totally remove Lisa from the equation. And even then, any random hook-ups Dean makes are going to have the underlying sense of what he's lost.

I didn't see the ep number of the ep with Lisa, just the title. It could very well be 6.21, which would make sense.

I gave Kimmer a possible solution to the cease-to-exist dilemma back in that post. If you want, I can re-post it here.

Not sure I'm down with the idea of an entire AU season.

[izhilzha.livejournal.com]

because I've never gotten the impression that they've ever said, "It's over."

Me either, honestly. Which I really, really like.

I hope they won't resort to killing the Braedens to get rid of them. That would be the least creative way to end that storyline, imho.

[ann-tara.livejournal.com]

"We can't be in this with you." That's really vague.

I had a totally different reaction. ;) I didn't think the line "Me and Ben can't be in this with you," *hang-up* before Dean can say anything, left any room for interpretation. Remember, in the same goodbye speech Lisa says that as soon as Sam came back, "I knew it was over."

Which is why I found it so baffling that they did what amounted to an unnecessary retcon in that mannequin episode where suddenly we're led to believe Lisa turned around and started calling incessantly and Dean refused to take her calls. We never heard or saw any evidence of that, and if Dean was still pining, why didn't he pick up the phone? None of it made sense to me.

Plus, we know that not only was Lisa not happy to see Dean again anyway, she's got another steady beau on the line. I got the impression they only threw Lisa and Ben into that story because of questions they may have received as to whether Lisa and Ben were coming back. Despite the use of present tenses from Dean when he's working on the car at the end, we've never seen any evidence that Dean has thought about them at all since then.

I don't know, I was on board with the whole Lisa&Ben thing before the season started - I thought the producers were really going to do something with this. But it ended up being a go-nowhere d-plot at best that only sidelined Dean whenever it showed up. Plus, I found it really strange, and disappointing, that neither character - Dean or Lisa - ever used the word "love" to describe their relationship, or said "I love you" to each other.

It's not the scenario story that I wanted for Dean, especially since I get the impression Jensen wasn't thrilled with it, nor am I feeling it from Dean as a character. And I really wanted to. I remember one of Ben Edlund's press vids from Comic Con before the season started where he laughed off the notion of Dean being with Lisa and said it was a mistake because the Braedens were nothing more than a "rebound". I was shocked that was the attitude the producers had right from the start. So why did they bother in the first place?

Anyway, all that being said, to go back to your original point of the post, I still find it hard to believe they would kill off the Braedens. Not only would it be super-redundant ala the deaths of Mary and Jessica specifically, but it's more tricky to kill off a kid too. Yeah, they've killed off kids before, but not young children who were involved in any kind of family way with the Winchesters. I could be wrong, of course, but right now I'm not anticipating it. I think I could more easily believe a mind-wipe kind of thing to keep them safe, where they don't remember Dean after that, so it's like the relationship never happened. I don't know why I feel like that could happen, but it sort of goes along with your feeling about the Winchesters being erased from history.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Interesting. We saw very different things in the relationship. The way I see it, Jensen has always played that Dean wants to be with Lisa (maybe not Lisa specifically at first, but he's always wanted a steady, committed relationship with a woman. At least since the end of S2. Possibly as far back as S1, if Cassie hadn't dumped him again). He's not blissfully happy--how could he be--but he cares about Lisa and Ben deeply, and they care about him. I don't know if you've read any of my old posts on this, but I've never expected them to be in OMG!You!Complete!Me! love. But they've been through some really deep stuff together, and there's a bond.

While I would have liked to hear them say, "I love you," I'm not surprised that they didn't. Dean doesn't really come out and say things point-blank like that. And I can see him being reluctant to put it into words, particularly with his history of losing people he loves. But it shows in his actions.

I didn't find it particularly baffling that they brought Lisa and Ben back. Until they actually say, in no uncertain terms, that it's completely over, leaving no opening whatsoever, I'm of the opinion that there's always a chance. For me, the truth spell conversation seemed pretty real and natural. Lisa didn't say anything I didn't already suspect or know, and none of it said to me that the door was closed, never to be opened again.

Lisa did a pretty good job of explaining her reaction to Dean's sudden appearance at her door in "Mannequin," and "I'm trying to get over you," is as much as saying "I'm in love with you." Which apparently came as new information to Dean. Basically, Matt was a rebound, a distraction, an attempt to move on from Dean. But I get the impression that ever since Dean showed up in TKAA (and saved her and Ben's lives), she's been in love with him. I didn't see M3 as a retcon . Lisa is in love with Dean, that's never been a secret, and it makes sense to me that even though she hung up on him, she'd cool down and try to call him.

Poor Lisa, in love with a man who can't give her the quiet, safe life she wants.

Neither was I surprised that Dean had almost called her back many times. We saw that in the first half of the season, how he'd scroll to her number on his phone, but not hit dial. What I did want to smack him upside the head for was not picking up her call. But again, I can see why he wouldn't, in that it would make him vulnerable, and he doesn't think he's good enough for them.

People who love each other not communicating with each other is very realistic. And not talking about it is practically SOP for the Winchesters.

I'm glad I didn't hear Ben Edlund's comments on the topic. I try not to read or listen to writer interviews and comments until I've seen the finished product. Because what they say and what ends up on my TV screen aren't always the same thing.

Regarding Jensen's thoughts on the matter, I'd be so very interested to talk to him about this. I know he had issues with playing "softer," which I though he handled beautifully and found a perfect balance. He also said (at the end of S5) that he would like to play something along the lines of the guy in The Hurt Locker, when he came home from Iraq and couldn't find his place. That's precisely what they were doing with Dean at the beginning of the season, with Dean having better results than the dude in HL. I'd be interested to know what he thought specifically of playing opposite Cindy Sampson. I'd like to tell him that I loved seeing this side of Dean, and seeing Dean in such different circumstances.

I suppose I should just get used to the fact that "no one" likes Dean with Lisa and Ben. It's very disheartening for me, and I'm apparently seeing deeper layers there that no one else sees.

Oh, and don't even get me started on the memory-wipe. I cried my eyes out for 20 minutes at the end of the Dr. Who season where they did that to my favorite character. I don't know if my heart could take the memory of Dean being wiped from the minds of people he loves.

We'll just have to wait and see. Just writing all this out has made me feel better about it.

(I hope this post makes sense. I've been multitasking while writing it.)

[leelust.livejournal.com]

I really kinda hate don't like that Dean can never be happy or fulfill his dreams.
THIS! If not this i don't see a point in the show's message.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

I kinda think they've lost track of the "message." Wasn't there an ep that said, "Hope is the whole point"? And "It's about family"? Or something like that? I mean, they've still got the family angle going in various incarnations, but things haven't felt blatantly, excitingly hopeful for long while.