My corner of fandom, 'tis a lonely place

[feliciakw]

My little corner of fandom, 'tis a lonely place right now.

Dr. Who just wiped clean the memory of one of my favorite characters. It's as if her adventures never happened. I'm sitting here with my chin trembling, my lip quivering, and tears dripping down my face. The Donna we knew, the Donna The Doctor knew, is gone. And the way they left it, they can't bring her back. (Still, this being Dr. Who, anything is possible, right? Right?)

This is on top of the loneliness I've felt today in regards to SPN fandom. It's silly, I know. It's just a TV show.

I've made a choice to try to remain as unspoiled as I can for the upcoming season. The loneliness comes when I realize that everyone I converse with has been spoiled. This in effect negates any and all speculation we might banter about, because anything I say is bound to be wrong, and they know it. I've got no one to talk to about what could happen, because they know what will happen. And anything I speculate will be so off base as to seem misguided and foolish. So what's the point?

I've even thought, well, since the entire cast and crew are yammering away, why then, it doesn't matter if I'm spoiled. Obviously, they want their audience to be spoiled. The buzz and the chatter keep interest up. It's a publicity tool. So there ya go. I've considered hunting down the first 5 minutes of 4.1, simply so I can have something to talk to my correspondents about. But then I think, no, I don't want to see it on my little computer screen, a crummy picture that streams in fits and starts. Even a rough cut deserves better than that. I want to see it for the first time in all its heart pounding glory.

And though my fannish self is crushed by the season finale of Dr. Who, I'm glad I was unspoiled for it. It wouldn't have held the emotional punch if I'd seen it coming.

My little corner of fandom, 'tis a lonely place.

Comments

[leelust.livejournal.com]

But... but you can look at just common way they want to explore in S4 and know nothing specific. Then you'll be able to talk (cos even spoiler-people don't know exactly what's in the bag - they know only parts). In CCon interviews boys talk much about general directions for their characters and yes there're spoilers but they're mild (for my opinion).

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Sorry for the delay in replying. I've calmed down from the emotional whammy that Dr. Who dealt me, and I'm feeling better.

And thank you for trying to make me feel better. 'Tis much appreciated. :-)

I feel like I already know more than I wanted to, so I'm finding it easier (yeah, right) just to avoid talking about the upcoming season at all. I know the general direction things are going to take (like the S1 mystery was "Where is Dad?" and the S2 mystery was "What's up with Sam's powers" and S3 was "How do we break Dean's deal?") I know what the S4 mystery is (and I think it will continue to be a mystery because the writers don't know how to get themselves out of the corner they've painted themselves into), and that's all I really want to know at this point. I'll go back and re-watch all the interviews after the ep airs--in six weeks.

[leelust.livejournal.com]

It's ok i'm always late myself :)

It's hard for me to understand how people even manage to have a willpower not to read all spoilers :) I can't help myself and read all of them - it's so interesting for me to dig deep and then find put that they change some small details and all my diggins were for nothing. :) It's like a catch play. You said it so cryptic about general direction of S4 and writers in the corner that i'm not sure i fully understand it cos knowing spoilers i don't see any corners but don't worry i won't spoil you.
Actually if you tend to watch all interviews after 401 - be prepared cos they talk about course of at least 3-4 eps. Nothing specific though - more like general stuff.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Re: the "corner" the writer's have "painted themselves into" . . . I'm sorry, perhaps this is an idiom that does not translate. It comes from the image of someone painting a floor, and instead of painting toward a door so the person has a way out when he's finished, he paints so that he ends up in a corner and has nowhere to go, no way out when he's done, without ruining his work.

I'm referring the the "corner" of putting Dean in Hell. The writers sent Dean to Hell, and now they have no idea how they're getting him out. I know (according to early interviews) the on-going mystery of S4 will be "How does Dean get out of Hell?" . . . which isn't that big a spoiler and isn't that much of a surprise. We know Dean does get out, but no one, not even the writers, know how. (I think Jensen's story--yes, I've watched the ComicCon panel--of asking Eric "How do I get out?" and Eric says "I have no idea," is very telling. They wrote this storyline, and now they have no idea how they're going to "fix" it.) That's why they're picking up the story months later (something I didn't really want to know, but whatever) rather than picking up the story immediately where they left off.

Knowing much of anything else makes me too anxious for the new season. I want to see it now.

Of course, you, knowing spoilers, know more than I do, and maybe they resolve the mystery of how Dean gets out within the first 4 eps, and the on-going mystery is "What happened to Mary?" Maybe I'm totally off base on this. In fact, the more I think about your comment about "there are no corners," that makes me think that maybe yeah, they do resolve very early on the mystery of how Dean got out. All I really, really want is for Kripke and his team to do right by the characters.

But what you say about knowing where the first 3-4 eps are going, what's going to happen in them, is exactly why I stay away from the detailed spoilers. I want to enjoy the experience of discovering the the story as it unfolds in front of me.

My experience with Dr. Who last week is a good example. I'd suspected for several weeks that something bad was going to happen to Donna, just based on things said in the dialogue of the show. But I had no idea they were going to do what they did--I didn't even know, though I'm not surprised, that there were no plans for the actress to return next season--and the not knowing made my emotional reaction that much more intense because I was genuinely surprised. In fact, I think I would have been less surprised if they'd actually killed the character off. But what they did . . . gah!

Believe me, I'm very tempted to watch the interviews. I'm usually more tempted to watch interviews than read reports anyway, because I like to go directly to the source whenever possible. But once the season starts and we're into the story, then I can watch the interviews. Still, good to know that I should wait 3 or 4 eps. Thanks for the tip! :-)

I'm sorry. I'm babbling. This is probably much more than you bargained for in my response. :-)

[leelust.livejournal.com]

Oh, thanx for great reply.
No, i know what that saying means we use the same actually :) But for me (considering you know about 'how' and 'when' and all that Hell thing) it's not a corner. 'How' question as i see it will be written in general mythology (again - it's only my guesses not real spoilers don't worry) so for me it's just very interesting theme for new season but not the corner. Technically 'how' can be resolved in many ways but i'm not the fan of tech details i'm more interested in character's development and for me there were no flaws in them through all 3 seasons so in Kripke i trust :)
As to panel - Kripke's 'i have no idea' of how Dean will get out of Hell is his reaction to the beginning of this hiatus - now as i see it he have an idea and his 'how' will transform to 'why' (i believe it's not a spoiler at all cos it's like one question that creats another one).
Also for me (sorry i can say only for myself to be sure) the picking up story after 4 months is good, maybe brilliant even. The picking it right away does nothing to us - same situation, same characters no real decisions. But after 4 months we can have all of it developed - it'll be not the same Dean obviously (no matter what 'details' they write in the situation) and it'll be of course not the same Sam (he had some experience of living w/o Dean but then in Mystery Spot he knew - his purpose is to find Trikster and 'fix' all of it and now all he knows that he doesn't have Dean anymore) and now the decision will change too cos there'll be no point in getting Dean from Hell. We have the whole new bunch of questions and somehow new but familiar characters to watch their changes and try to guees what happened when we all were on hiatus :) For me it's more interesing story that gives us more ways to interpret the ways of characters development.

maybe they resolve the mystery of how Dean gets out within the first 4 eps,
Actually i think they don't. I don't say much about it to not spoil you more :) But there was no spoilers about real breakout in this direction - for me it's more like the whole season mystery and i like it :)

I know what you mean telling you want to discovering the story it's just i have opposite point here - i like to know something related to new eps - like theme, creatures involved, maybe some mystery and lore - i know that usually all that knowing mean almost nothing when it comes to real ep but it takes me opportunity to learn more and that's what i like about SN universe - it spurs me to learn more and i like it.
Sorry i tried to watch Doc Who and it's not my sandbox so i can't share your feelings.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

First, I completely understand your reaction to Dr. Who. I really like the New Who that started a few years back, but when my husband watches the old ones, I have no patience. It's definitely not everyone's cup of tea. I just gave that as an example of how TPTB treated one of my absolute favorite characters, and my unspoiled reaction to it.

Re: Picking up the story months later instead of immediately following . . . after giving it thought a while back (when I first found out this was the route they were taking), from a storytelling point of view, I tend to agree that this is the better route to take. It avoids the necessity of showing Dean's time in Hell (for the moment, anyway), and it gets the characters back together as quickly as possible, which is the premise of the show to begin with. My initial reluctance comes from a season cliffhanger of Farscape, where they left Our Hero in a horrible, horrible predicament, and at the opening of the following season, he'd already been rescued from that predicament and we were thrown headlong into the next. I felt gypped, because it was so anticlimactic. I don't think this will be a problem with SPN, though, because that's what they're basing the season's story arc on. Rather than explaining things away in a couple sentences of dialogue, they'll use the predicament as the ongoing mystery of the season. I'm totally cool with that.

My biggest concern comes with how the characters will be treated. I've gone through some "character dies/goes to Hell/demon takes his place" type storylines in some of my favorite shows in the past. It's always very tricky territory to navigate satisfactorily. (No, I don't think Dean is coming back as a demon. In fact, if he does, I'll be really disappointed.) I've had many people tell me to trust Kripke, but I'm not sure I do. As Jared said, as long as Kripke is involved in the show, we should all be very nervous. Given some of Kripke's story ideas that have then been re-written for the better by others on the writing team, I . . . I'm just really twitchy about what he's going to do to the Boys. I'm delighted he has people on the team who balance out his desire for gore with decent character development. But I'm also willing to wait and see and hope it unfolds well and he/they do justice to the storyline.

And now I feel like I'm talking in circles and have gotten completely off track of our original topic of conversation. :-)

Gotta run to a meeting. Thanks for the conversation!

[leelust.livejournal.com]

First - OMG! Another Farscape fan? OMG! Can't believe it! And if we touched this holy ground - what end of season did you mean? I remember the whole series but not sure about ending/starting eps.

Re: Doc Who - yeah, you're right - i can't watch something if i don't feel something for characters if i'm indefferent to them. In Doc Who i felt nothing when i tried to watch so i stopped.

Rather than explaining things away in a couple sentences of dialogue,
It's off somehow but i like how they did it in S1 - explain something through couple of phrase or looks or acts. It was like we learn something new about Winchester's family along with Sam :) I don't mind if they keep it in next season too. I mean - i can tell they have a lot thingsd to explain to each other, right?

My biggest concern comes with how the characters will be treated
I don't know what path they choose but i really don't think Dean'll return as demon. I mean he can think about it or about some demon part inside him cos it's natural but i don't think he'll be real 100% demon. The main part in Dean's character that attract so many fans was the fact that he's just human as you and me - nothing 'super' attached. So i don't think they'll ruin it. For my taste they can do him a demon but if they choose to do it they have to be very carefully cos there'll be dangerous territory for the writers. If they choose of course but i don't think so...
As to 'Kripke factor' I don't know him personally but as i see him - he likes to talk about horror and gore but it's jus words. He rules this SN universe and no matter how loud he speaks about blood and monsters main theme of the show stays family and brotherly dynamics. I think all Kripke's words are just disguise cos if he start talking about family and love yadda-yadda people can say 'Boring' and stop watching. Plus the gold factor in SN crew - they have Our Boys (esp Jensen cos i'm Jensen girl) and what writers failed to describe boys will do perfectly. They know their characters well enough to 'fix' some problems, you know :)
As to characters development i think Kripke chose good tactic - many unresolved question before were discovered and resolved through conflicts between boys (i mean fights and quarrels and disputs) and considering they both didn't meet for so long there'll be big terrain to fight about.

now I feel like I'm talking in circles and have gotten completely off track of our original topic of conversation. :-)
I don't feel it a second :) Actually it was great conversation - no matter where we started it it's always good to talk about the show i love. Thanx for listening and participating and i hope it was not the last time :)

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

I must make this quick, as I have to get to an appointment. I'll give my full attention to your post when I get back. But I did want to address this:

It's off somehow but i like how they did it in S1 - explain something through couple of phrase or looks or acts. It was like we learn something new about Winchester's family along with Sam :) I don't mind if they keep it in next season too. I mean - i can tell they have a lot thingsd to explain to each other, right?

That's not really what I mean. Finding out about characters through a throw-away line or a glance is great--it's one of the things Jared and Jensen excell at. No, I mean explaining away an entire storyline in a couple sentences--like explaining how Dean got out of Hell with an oh, by the way, his contract wasn't valid because . . . or whatever. They need to delve into it and how it affected both the Boys. And I think that's what they're going to do. So I'm not really perturbed that they're picking it up where they are, especially if we eventually find out what *did* happen in those missing months.

I'm comparing it specifically in Farscape in the season where they left John hanging out in space in his module by himself while Moya got sucked into a wormhole. The following season we started with John already having been rescued by a passing laviaton, and he'd been on his own for months. There could have been all sorts of adventures of him being picked up by Scorpius or something, but instead, they just kind of told us oh, btw, this passing laviathon found him and picked him up. Very anticlimactic for me.

Gotta run. Will be back.

[leelust.livejournal.com]

Oh, i see abd agree now - i see it the same way too. I mean the 'How' Dean got out from Hell is the whole new arc for me and i hope this question (and all that caused by it) will be with us the whole season. I'd say more about comparision with S1 but again i'm afraid of spoiling you so let's wait till new season starts and we will be able to see if i was right :)
And i really love that 'affected' part - for both boys - it's the way to explain characters' changes and expand territory for farther developments.

As to Farscape - now i recall that moment - i was cringing a little but then i was all after John (missed him so much) so i 'forgave' them. That universe has so many ways for adventures so maybee writers just were scary to lost in those ways and just gave us new a little different John to play with... Just to start over with it. I mean if they'd had more seasons maybe they'd returned to this theme... i don't know...

OK, wait for you to return :) Great discussion.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Okey dokey, I'm back.

I think we're mostly in agreement with how they'll (generally speaking) handle things, and I am with you 100% that Our Boys put so much into the characters that's not on the written page that it's a pleasure to watch.

About Kripke, though. Things might have changed in the past couple of years, but early on--S1, I think--when he and Robert Singer were part of the Paley Festival panel, he as much as said that he's all into the gore and horror of the show and Robert Singer is the producer who wants to focus on character development and story. Kripke even said it was a good match, considering that he, Kripke was all about the gore and Singer was all about the story (my words, paraphrasing). They balance each other. Things might have changed since then, because now I read that Kripke said that FX aren't as interesting as character development. That might be a maturing of sorts on his part, and it might also be his way of explaining how they'll work with the budgetary constraints I hear they're facing. They don't have the money for FX, so they're going to focus on dialogue and character development. He has also always said that at its core, the show is about two brothers. (For me, if the story and characters aren't engaging, the special FX mean nothing.)

Then on the commentary track of WIaWSNB, Kripke talks about his original idea for the story, which was to make Dean out to be a complete and total loser, a drifter, with nothing at all going for him. It was the writing team that told him that was taking things a little too far, and that Dean would not be a complete loser.

I don't know who he bounced ideas off of for the revisions to the pilot ep, but the original draft that Ficwriter posted a link to is very different from the "urban legend" idea that Kripke says he wanted to base the series on. Because the original draft is missing the urban legend element the pilot ep ends up using.

I'm only putting together pieces that I'm getting from here and there, but as much as everyone thinks Kripke is a "magnificent bastard," I hesitate to dismiss the people around him; he's not doing this by himself. But knowing enough to surround yourself with good people is a brilliance in itself.


So while I don't dispute Kripke's creativity in coming up with ideas and concepts, and I understand his passion for writing things the way he wants to write them, I'm also delighted that he's surrounded with people who will sort of give him the proverbial slap upside the head when he needs it. Kripke is at the helm, but he's not doing it alone. TV, by its very nature, is a team effort. As Ficwriter said, Kripke is driving the bus, but other people are holding the map.

I find the whole creative team dynamic fascinating.

:-)

[leelust.livejournal.com]

Oh, thanx for the answer! Yahoo just shoed it to me *slaps yahoo* So sorry for late reply.

You know what? I agree with you - the facts you tell are well-known i just see them a little different if we talk about Kripke.
I mean - i know what you mean spoken of Paley words and i see it this way - Kripke's just happy to do something big he maybe never thought of doing and he's like a child in candy store - he likes gore and blood and he can talk about it for hours but he knows it's only on surface.
Like you said - even in the beginning )Paley) he knew how important Singer's role was and how important characters development is.
Then lately he said more about characters and arc and less of FX. I see it as maturing too - he learn from people surrounding him. Plus and it's a big plus to me - Jensen always repeats that he calls Kripke with questioning about his character - so for him Kripke knows the character as well as actors who play them.

As to WIAWSNB i remember him saying that but it's hard for me to understand completely cos the meaning of 'loser' is different here. Maybe for you the way Dean is in jinn's reality is loser's way but for me it's not. So maybe for Kripke the way he wrote Dean was as loser but we see him as not loser at all. It's hard to explain with my knowledge of english though. I mean i don't see Dean as loser there but it's me - maybe on your taste he was a loser - i don't know...
Again - the thing that Kripke can listen to others and let them convince himself is big plus to me too. (and of course i agree with you that it wasn't only Kripke's victory in that ep - it was mutual).
As to Pilot (and i read that first draft but it was so long ago i barely remember) i think Kripke mentioned not once that he rewrote it so many times and changed the main story so many times that i don't even know what was his first shot there. i only remember that at first it was more like Kolchack not SN :)

as much as everyone thinks Kripke is a "magnificent bastard," I hesitate to dismiss the people around him
I can't tell for others but for me when i say Kripke's eveil genius or magnificent bastard - i mean him and his team - always with team. Cos i can imagine how supportive they are and how much they love what they're doing. I never separate them from him.
And yes, of course i agree with you again on another big plus - the ability ot surround himself with great people and listen to them. I think all of it are the factors of show's success. Of course the main part of it are our boys and Jensen esp but actors cannot do much w/o writers and other crew.

A little off but...
For me, if the story and characters aren't engaging, the special FX mean nothing
Totally agree! That's the reason i can't watch almost all summer blockbusters. All i see there are FXs and nothing more - it's depressing somehow...

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Just a quick reply, to clarify word usage . . .

I think for the most part, we're understanding each other in regards to "loser." Remember that in WIaWSNB, there are two Deans: there's "our" Dean, and there's "fantasy" Dean, or more accurately, the perception of "fantasy" Dean. The show never shows "fantasy" Dean; only the perceptions of others in regards to "fantasy" Dean. (That all has to do with the point of view the ep is written in, but I won't get into that here.)

In WIaWSNB, from what I remember (because I haven't listened to the commentary in a while), Kripke wanted to make Dean a "loser." As I understand it, he wanted to turn Dean into a drifter, someone who can't hold a job, a heavy drinker, someone without purpose or direction in life. Someone who isn't doing anything to contribute to society or benefit those around him or the world he lives in. But the writing team argued that even at his worst, Dean would never be that bad.

So in the actual ep, we get (fantasy) Dean as someone who maybe doesn't have everything together, someone who everyone assumes is on the losing end of the scale--people are constantly asking him if he's been drinking and assume that he has, Sam easily believes that Dean got in over his head gambling, Dean grew up stealing from Sam (money and girlfriends) and ditching family events (Sam's graduation)--but Dean also has a steady job, a steady girlfriend, a permanent home. So while the Dean of the fantasy world might not have great ambitions (like Sam's ambition to become a lawyer), he does have people, like his mom and Carmen, who genuinely care about him. Even "fantasy" Dean isn't a total loser.

And it goes without saying that "our" Dean, the real Dean, the Dean that ended up in the fantasy, isn't a loser. We're seeing our not-loser Dean step into the life of a Dean that does have some loser qualities (but not to the extent that Kripke originally wanted to take it). Hence the confusion on everyone's part about why Dean is acting so strange. This isn't the Dean they're used to, particularly Sam. This Dean isn't acting like a selfish loser, because our Dean isn't a selfish loser.

And if I get much more into this, I'll start analyzing what the episode says about Dean's image of himself, since it is all in his head, and that's a really lengthy conversation in and of itself.

But does that make sense? That's what I mean by Kripke wanting to make fantasy Dean a loser, but the writing team talked him out of it. Even fantasy Dean wouldn't be as bad as Kripke wanted to go with it.

I think I hurt my brain.

Less than two weeks until the new season. Woo hoo! Then I can go back and watch all the interviews I've had to miss up until now.

[leelust.livejournal.com]

OMG! I adore this ep! One of the best of the best in history of tv i think.
I know what you mean - the ep is all about perceptions (and i love it so much) and for me Kripke's initial intention to make Dean total loser means just that he wanted to make him completely different and since our Dean is no loser at all it's logical to assume that 'parallel universe' Dean must be a loser. I think it was his conception. And again i think his team was right to argue with him cos conception or not the world we see in this ep is the world based on Dean viewing of the world around himself and self-perception so i can't be totally different from what we know. I mean people can think of Dean less but Dean with his self-esteem issues still knows about himself that he's good hunter and not so bad brother so he can't change it inside his head. (if it has any sense).
The description of this ep is very difficult cos there's a conflict between Dean's thoughts about self-perception and the way he see the world and jinn's reality based on Dean's thought that not completely right cos entering this reality Dean already knows he's not in the world he used to be. Plus there are Dean's issues with Dad and their family's destiny and issues of 'saving people, hunting things' and why we? Plus i think Dean's constant mention of drinking problem says that he think about too. Plus dead end of Sammy factor - he's good w/o Dean but he's not Sammy we know and love and he cares about his big brother not so much but he wants to be with him on the hunt (i mean there's like a click there - the moment Sam easily think of Dean as thief stealing mom's silver and the moment later he's in the car with him - i know it's cos he feels something not right but for me it's Deans issue with Sam - he wants him to leave w/o him cos Dean believes he's bad for his brother and in the same time he wants Sam to be with him cos he's family and he loves him).
I know i digress from Kripke's theme but on Kripke's front we already agree in main question and this ep is just so perfect to talk about and so complex and full of many interesting questions that i can't hepl it and talk and talk, sorry :)

Yeah, less than 2 weeks left and conversations like this make this time bearable, thanx :)

[kerravonsen]

I know, I cried during that scene with Donna.

[just-ruth.livejournal.com]

Marirose and I sat at the end of Dr. Who.

Me: "That's so sad."

Marirose: "That just SUCKS - they left her back as that horrible twit that I went why her? It so SUCKS!

On the other hand - Gwen and Ianto fighting the Daleks! Sara Jane Smith! I have always had a soft spot for Sara Jane and its so nice to see her more kickass than ever.

On S4 SPN? This is why I quit a couple of comms. Dean's coming back; that's all I need to know.

[scionofgrace.livejournal.com]

I remain mostly unspoiled for SPN just because, for some reason, I don't have a burning desire to find out everything that happens next. There may be some plot points I want to know ("How long do I have to wait before Dean and Sam are reunited?"), but the rest I'd rather find out when the episodes air.

But oh, Donna...! I knew Tate was leaving, but that ending...! I did fear they'd kill Donna off, since she said she'd travel with the Doctor forever, but that end was JUST NOT FAIR. My hope is for The Moff to find a way to bring her back: apparently, he prefers happy endings. Until then, I comfort myself with fixit fic.

We can be lonely together, how 'bout that?

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

We can be lonely together, how 'bout that?

:-)

I appreciate the support. Even if my thanks is a little late.