Question for my F-Listies (and anyone else who wanders by)

[feliciakw]

NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT INCLUDE ACTUAL SPOILERS IN YOUR RESPONSE. I cannot stress this strongly enough. I am trying to remain as spoiler-free as possible (without completely leaving the Internet) until September 18. (Note to self: Stay away from TVGuide.com.) Here's my question:

For those of you who live for spoilers, who go hunting them down, who read the sides, who grasp at any and every spoiler as if it is a life preserver . . .

Has knowing the surprises and twists and turns and reveals of a show ever really enhanced your enjoyment of it?

The reason I ask is this: I've been watching YouTube vids of yesterday's SPN panel at SDCC. For the most part, I feel I came away minimally spoiled (yay!). Much of what was mentioned I read weeks ago (and promptly stopped reading spoilers), and some of it (like a guest casting mention and episode plot) was more like "coming attractions" than actual "spoilers." However, in one person's question, I learned something that doesn't really surprise me, but now I've lost the "Oh! Of course! That's awesome!" that I would have otherwise had when watching the season opener. Now this particular piece of information might not even be considered a spoiler to some folks. But I, now knowing to expect this piece of information, will miss out on the nifty-neato coolness of discovering it for myself (amidst all the angst).

So my question is . . . do you really enjoy the show more when you know what's going to happen? Do you worry for no reason when rumors or publicity prove to be misleading? Do you cope better with big reveals that disappoint when you know them ahead of time?

Because me? Half the fun of SPN is not knowing what's going to happen next. (Granted, this is a double edged sword, as not knowing also contributes to much viewer anxiety in the midst of the story arc. Of course, previous betrayals by various shows contributes to that, but I digress . . .) Some things I'm not surprised by, even if I'm not spoiled for them. (Dean's circumstances at the end of S3, for example. No surprise. Otoh, Don and Charlie's circumstances at the end of N3 last season? HUGE surprise. I was closer to tears for that one than for SPN, precisely because I did not see it coming.) But I would have been VASTLY disappointed if I'd been spoiled for the twist in "Mystery Spot," for example. Or if I'd known how S1 ended.

So I'm curious. If it does enhance the show, how so? If it doesn't, why do you spoil yourself?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Comments

[kalquessa.livejournal.com]

For some reason, mild spoilers enchance my enjoyment of a lot of TV, just because the spoilers generally give me reason to squee now, followed by actually watching the ep, which I enjoy just as much as I would have without being spoiled. It's like getting a gift certificate: you get the "yay! present!" happiness, and later you get to actually buy something with it, so you get more yay later, too. Two yays for the price of one!

The exception for me seems to be SPN, because I really like that "Oh my gosh!" freak-out. With SG-1, X-Files, etc, I liked having the comfort of knowing everything would be fine in the end because there's still x-number of season to go, so obviously no one;s dying in this or that ep. With SPN, I'm watching it while it's still airing, so I'm enjoying the surprises. Don't mind being mildly spoiled, esp for the beginning of the season, during the hiatus, but I do like to avoid finding out how the finales go down ahead of time.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

I feel that way about "yay" ahead of time when it comes to previews . . . but not actual spoilers. Like the previews they cut together for upcoming eps? I'm totally there. I cannot tell you how many times in a row I will watch a SPN preview (I'm thinking specifically of when I discovered the preview trailer for Malleus Malleficarum (sp?). Because, dude! That just amped up my anticipation for the ep (which I still have mixed feelings about).

But I guess I look at those a little bit differently than I do actual spoilers. Like, knowing the twists and turns before I get there.

For example: Regarding SG-1, I had NO FRIGGIN' CLUE they were going to do to Janet what they did to Janet. I just sat there, stunned, saying, "Did they just do what I think they just did? That's . . . . That's . . . . That's not right! They did not just do what I think they just did! Oh my gosh! They DID!!!" It would not have had the emotional impact that it did had I known ahead of time.

Btw, regarding Kripke's comment about repeatedly killing off Dean? And it losing its effectiveness? Word. They were always killing off Iolaus in H:tLJ, and after about his third death? It gets old after a while. "Oh, gee. Iolause died. Now Herc has to go to Hades and talk him out of keeping Iolaus." Until Iolaus actually *did* die, like, for good (but not) . . . but I won't go into that.

Eep. Sorry for the digression.

And thanks for playing! :-D

[kalquessa.livejournal.com]

Yeah, killing Dean is going to take on the same ho-humness as killing Daniel Jackson. Oh, he's dead again? I wonder how long it'll last, this time. *yawn*

[ficwriter1966.livejournal.com]

Or like killing Kenny on South Park - it becomes a running joke. :O

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Now, we all know that killing off Daniel is a long and time-honored tradition, starting with the movie. :-)

And if anyone should be talking to Sam and Dean about multiple deaths, it should probably be Jack. 'Cause he knows of what he speaks. *snerk*

[andromakhe001.livejournal.com]

They haven't actually killed Dean that much. He's only died once. He was seriously injured and close to death once, terminally ill once. The only time he "died" was in a Trickster creation so that's essentially just like an extended vision. So Dean's only really died ONCE, when he was killed in NRFTW.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Yes, I see where you're coming from. He's had a Reaper ready to take him twice. And while he might not have *actually* died all those times in "Mystery Spot" (and it really depends on how you interpret the ep), still, to Sam it feels like he's died umpteen bajillion (actual number) times. For us the audience, maybe not, since it was supposed to be a really morbid running joke.

But by the time we got to NRftW? I was expecting it. Still trying to talk ways around it, but was expecting it. Which for me, lessens the impact.

LOOOOONG Ramble ahead :)

[andromakhe001.livejournal.com]

There were only two ways they could go, kill him or save him. It was 50/50 either way. Both of them were expected. :D Both of them were predictable. If they'd have saved him I would have screamed cop out. So I think it just depends on what one's individually preferred ending would be.

I have to admit didn't find seeing Dean ripped to shreds unaffecting. :D Maybe I'm just a sap. I hoped for it, expected it and it still felt powerful to me, because they'd allowed Dean to be so strong in his convictions right up to the end, it's like he never shined more brightly than right before his darkest hour and then suddenly he's dead and he's been killed in the most horrific way, alone on the floor with the last thing he knows being that Sam will probably be killed too and...it's Dean! Brave, fun-loving, damaged, sometimes crude, protective, badass DEAN. What can I say, I love Dean so for me that's kinda enough. :D So long as they don't kill him again, I think it's good. Then I think it they would be going overboard.

I think it would have been more of a cop out to have Sam suddenly save him. More importantly I think then it would have been about Sam only - all that worrying would essentially have just been a red herring to give an excuse to bringing about Sam's powers. Dean deserved Hell. LOL Seriously though, I think he deserved it as a character for his storyline and development.

This is where his tragic flaw AND his strength led him and I think he deserved to see it through as a character. Not to have it cut short for an interruption of Sam's destiny. For once he wasn't pulled back from or pulled off of his "hero's journey", he actually went to "the underworld" and now hopefully he'll come back, perhaps with knowledge or a boon, maybe hidden from his view for a while and it will have also cost him dearly(I assume:).

So I was both upset by his death and happy as, well, Hell that Kripke killed him and sent him to Hell. I think it'll make it alot easier for the writers. I think they've been struggling trying to keep the Mytharc as a one hero story(with Sam as the hero) in what is a two hero show.

Dean failed to save Sam in Season 2, thus the Deal(which was a failure for Dean, as good as his intentions were and as much as we needed Sam back in the story). Sam failed to save Dean in Season 3 and I assume(this isn't a spoiler because it's supposition on my part) however he has dealt with that failure will also be something of a failure for him.

PS:

[andromakhe001.livejournal.com]

Oh by the by way, just re-reading what I wrote, when I said "I love Dean so for me that was enough", I wasn't suggesting you didn't love Dean. Of course you do. I just meant in my I'm such a sap for him, that it worked for me. :)

Re: LOOOOONG Ramble ahead :)

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Oh, I totally wouldn't say Dean's death was unaffecting for me. It's just . . . well, call it the Hoban Washburn Effect, if you will (if you're familiar with the movie Serenity). The points in the ep that really affected me were the singing in the car. Dean's good-bye speech. When the clock strikes and Dean sees the Hellhounds--and he's the only one who can see them. The death itself? Tragic. Absolutely. No argument there. But I was braced for it. I distanced myself from it, to an extent. I was, I think, much more effected by his first death in "Mystery Spot."

Or maybe I've just got all my buffers in place and I need to re-watch the ep with fresh eyes and unbuffered emotions.

I'd pretty much been expecting Dean's death since the deal was made. My constant refrain has been "I hope they do the storyline justice." "I hope they do right by the character." I tend to agree that saving him before the deal would have been a cop out. And I do continue to hope that they do right by both characters. I'm not up on my hero's journey paradigm, but I know that seems to play a big part in how all this plays out.

Re: your PS . . . yes, I do love Dean. He's the character I most relate to, through whose eyes I tend to see things first. That could well be why I had my buffers in place for that scene. Because, dude. If I didn't? Well, denial ain't just a river, baby. :-)

Re: LOOOOONG Ramble ahead :)

[andromakhe001.livejournal.com]

Re: my PS - that's why I when I re-read what I'd posted I was like "Oh wait that could sound like I think she doesn't love Dean and I know she loves Dean" :). That's how I feel about the character too, he's the character who brings me into that world and whom I relate to. Honestly without him I doubt I'd be watching the show. Dean got me at "Easy, Tiger" and hasn't let go since. Damn Jensen! :D

As for the hero's journey, I'm not really that up on it. I just remember some of the basic parts in a general way and that trip to the underworld is a biggie(it needn't be literal obviously but in Dean's case it just happens to be, 'cause SPN is cool like that - in Sam's case I think he carries the underworld with him in a way, because of the "demon blood"). Though sometimes I wish they'd unwrite all of J. Campbell's books because I do get rather tired of all the writers who seem to use his "hero's journey" descriptions as a checklist instead of as what they were initially(I think), looking at many works of literature and legend and finding the similarities in order to show what they meant to the humans who were telling, hearing, writing and reading them. To my mind the "checklist" effect has just meant way too many genre movies and tv shows recently with "Chosen Ones" who are actually called...Chosen Ones. LOL

You're right, too, my main concern is just I hope they really do justice by both characters. And actually I see what you mean by not being as affected by the death. I have to say things prior to that may have been more emotionally affecting, even in the moments before but I guess that's okay. In a way it makes sense, I guess - the writers did use the "terminal illness" metaphor when talking about it. I mean we knew it was coming, we were waiting for it, prepared for it. So it hurt but maybe not in quite the same way as if it had been unexpected or sudden.

But it'll definitely have less impact in retrospect if they ever kill Dean again so, you know, I really hope they don't go there and turn this into "Oh Daniel Jackson is dead again? He'll be back, give him a few days". :) Mind you, I loved Daniel Jackson but there is still truth to the phrase "too much of a good thing".

[kimmer1227.livejournal.com]

I prefer not to look at spoilers. This is actually the most I've delved into spoilers. I broke down and read everything about the con, including the 5 minute preview. I don't look at sides, but will peek at discussions about sides. Once the season starts, I'll stop cold again. I really prefer that true element of surprise. Casting stuff doesn't bother me, most of the time.

I think I lose some of my enjoyment reading too much stuff. I tinkered a bit in other fandoms. For me, if I like what I read, I'm so excited about it, by the time it airs, I'm disappointed cos' I've built it up so much in my head. If I don't like what I read, then I dread it so much, I overanalyze and nitpick what actually airs. That's why I try to stay relatively spoiler free for SPN.

I actually have been more spoiled by the network promo department than any written spoiler. They showed Dean holding fallen Sam in the promo for AHBL I. They did the same for the S3 finale. They showed Sam holding fallen Dean. What the hell! I would probably have had a heart attack at the end of AHBL I, cos' I had NO idea they were killing Sammy. Maybe the network was looking out for my health.

[ficwriter1966.livejournal.com]

That's the thing - the network promo people love to use clips that they think will catch the most interest, even if they give away major plot points. That shot of Dean holding fallen Sam was the *key* shot of the episode - and it was in the stupid promos.

I have no willpower when it comes to spoilers. Now, if I were sitting down with a DVD set, having not seen the show before (which I've done with a number of shows), I wouldn't want to know what was coming up. I'd treat it like a book, and let it unspool bit by bit, over a relatively short period of time. Ditto with movies - I don't want to know what happens. Just tell me, is it worth my time and my $10. I *hate* reviews that outline 3/4 of the story!

But with shows I love? I am so excited about the whole thing that I'm, "Tell me MORE! Tell me more! Tell me now!!!" (Eleventy.) I want tidbits. I want to know who's coming and who's going. Is there a Christmas episode? Cool!! (Speaking of last year, so relax.) I don't like it when I know too much about the episode, so none of it seems fresh...but I just can't stop. (When I worked at ST:TNG, part of my responsibilities [!] was to watch the dailies with the other writers - so I basically saw the entire episode, out of order, repetitively, in chunks. Plus I'd read the scripts. So...zero surprise factor, by the time the episode aired. HATED that. 'Cause dammit, it was My Show!)

Does being spoiled enhance the experience for me? Yes, I guess so. I love finding out little nuggets of what's coming, because it helps fill those long gaps between seasons and episodes. I don't mind if it's things I don't think I'll like, because I can get used to them ahead of time. I know the entire opening 5 minutes of 4.01, but I'm cool with that - because on 9/18 I can SEE it, complete with music and FX, and enjoy the performances. I don't feel like it's "ruined" for me in any sense.

Do I worry for no reason? Of course. Worrying is my favorite pastime. If I have nothing to worry about, I'll make something up.

Did that help? :)

[kimmer1227.livejournal.com]

It's all YOUR fault I've been peaking at all! *points pointy pinky at Carol* Little goodies posted here and there. I'm stopping after this damn hiatus is over. I am! Probably...

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Is there a Christmas episode? Cool!! (Speaking of last year, so relax.)

See, this I do not consider a spoiler. Rather like knowing that they were going to do a "ghost hunters" episode (which I'd been saying for months that they needed to do). I'm kinda perturbed that I now know there's going to be a "time travel" ep . . . and who's going to be in it, but that's not a plot spoiler, just a coming attraction. It was TVGuide.com that had in big ol' headlines how the guest star was going to fit into the story, and that . . . well, I'll live with it, because again, not a huge plot spoiler, but no hopping on the couch with "Oooohhhhh!!!! It's Skinner!" from me.

And I know if I'd actually been at SDCC, I would have been totally cool and excited with seeing the rough cut, because, dude, how could you not? But not having *seen* it? I don't want to know until I can actually *see* it.

Thanks for answering! I'm just curious as to why people would want to be spoiled for a show that is, essentially, supposed to be based on suspense and surprise.

Of course, seeing something coming doesn't mean it still doesn't startle.

I took my cousin's daughter (my first cousin once removed, if you're keeping track) to see Psycho for the first time a few years ago. Big restored movie house, summer film festival. I told her nothing of the movie except that it was really good. She pooh-poohed it that it wasn't going to be scary. At various points in the movie, I'd lean over and ask, "You know what's going to happen, right?" You could tell from the camera angle and what was being shown on the screen.

"Yes," she'd say, a note of anxiety in her voice.

"It doesn't help, does it?" I asked, only slightly wickedly.

"No."

I don't know what that has to do with anything. I just love that story. :-)

[alphabet26.livejournal.com]

See, this I do not consider a spoiler.

I agree with you about this. I think that the SPN fandom--in general--can--at times--be waaaaaaaay too picky about what is a spoiler and what isn't. (Did I put in enough modifiers to not come off like a total witch? ;P) This is coming from the POV of someone who does like spoilers, but still. Knowing basics, like there's going to be a Christmas ep, is NOT a spoiler. Knowing that [whatever actor] will be in an episode is not a spoiler, either, to me. If I read a synopsis of DaLDoM that went Dean and Sam team up with Bela to try to save Bobby, I would not consider that to have spoiled anything about the episode. Knowing the basics /=not spoiling! If it said Dean faces up to his inner demons while dreamwalking...ooh. That's a little spoilery (more with hindsight than not, though, IMAO), so I could see someone being a little annoyed with that. If it went Dean lets out all his issues with his father as he wanders around the trappings of his own subconscious--hey, that's spoilery and not on, unless you're out trolling for spoilers.

I guess, for me, "spoilers" should be defined as something that's meant to be a surprise. We learn things over the course of an episode, of course, but some things are meant to shock and startle us, and others aren't. That Dean died over and over in MS wasn't hidden and wasn't supposed to be a surprise reveal. That he stayed dead and that it was the Trickster--that's the spoiler.

Okay, now that I've got my thoughts about yaoi out of the way (sorry about that!), onto your actual question.

I like knowing a lot about the basics of what's coming up. Where's the episode going to be? Who's guest starring? What's the MotW? So I'll look for those kinds of spoilers like crazy. But the big plot points...ooh. I don't mind knowing--if I click on site for mild spoilers and then I miss/disregard a warning and see a big spoiler, I'm not going to freak out.

But I actually like being part of the group that didn't know something. For example, I've always known that Darth Vader was Luke's father. Even when I had only the most basic idea of what Star Wars was, before I'd ever seen it, I knew that line, "Luke...I am your father." But there was a time when I didn't know that Snape killed Dumbledore. When I didn't know if Snape was a good guy or a bad guy. That's the exciting part to me. If I have kids, to them, "Snape killed Dumbledore!" will be one of those joke spoilers like "Darth's Luke's father" or "The Titanic sank." But it was a real shock for my fandom friends and me.

So, lots of mild spoilers, but not the big things. "Bobby faces up to his past" or "We learn more about Bobby's history" are okay. Maybe even "We learn that Bobby had a family and what happened to it" if I'm feeling like I want to know more. "Bobby killed his wife while she was possessed by a demon" is too much for me.

But if I miss an episode and all my friends are squeeing, I'll generally spoil myself hard core because I'll want to know what's going on. I want to share in the love and for me, there's nothing sadder than finally getting to see something a week later and you post about it/comment on your friends' LJs and all you get are three replies that are, "Yeah!" and "I know!" and that's it. D:

Wow, sorry about hitting that teal deer in your comments.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

I sort of agree, and sort of don't regarding guest casting (and MotW). Because in a show like SPN, where it's supposed to be based a lot on suspense and reveals, it gets tricky. Most of the stuff (esp. S1) is simple synopsis information. "The Boys face Bloody Mary/The Hookman/a wendigo/a haunted house." Is the casting "spoiler" of Rufus coming back actually a spoiler? For me, no. Would knowing the trickster was in "Mystery Spot" be a spoiler? Oh, yeah, because he's one of the plot twists and reveals. He was also the MotW. Actually, "Mystery Spot" works really well as an example of spoilers vs. non-spoilers, and what works if you know it ahead of time and what loses its punch.

Re: Star Wars . . . ah, you must be a young'un. I was raised on SW . . . in fact, for me there is no such thing as "Ep IV: A New Hope." That installment? Is simply Star Wars. If you talk about "the first SW" or "the first SW movie," that's the one I think of first. There was no Ep IV title when I first saw it, and it's only just now starting to look even a little normal to see it at the beginning of the scroll. The first time I realized it was supposed to be "A New Hope" was when Empire Strikes Back came out, and still, no one I knew called it by that title. But I digress.

After the reveal in ESB, I spent the next three years coming up with reasons why Darth was lying. Because yeah, that was a BIG reveal. My first argument is the same one I use against believing demons in SPN: he/she/they are evil. NEVER take what evil tells you at face value. Ever. Because there's always a catch.

Digression: if SPN is supposed to be "SW in rural America," then Sam, as Luke Skywalker, is going to have to face his dark side in order to save Han from being frozen in the hell of carbonite. Or something. ;-) Actually, he'll have to face his dark side in order to save his family . . . but you get the picture. /digression

Also? Children will now never know the chill of dread that crept up the spine when Darth took his first assisted breath in the Revenge of the Sith. Because for me? When I was growing up, that heavy, foreboding respiration was the harbinger of evil. And to hear it for the "first time" . . . *shiver*. But alas, everyone now knows that Darth is Luke's father, and Luke saves him.

Sharing squee is fun, but I don't do it on-line like I used to. And since I'm usually the first of my buds to see something (me being in the Eastern time zone and them being in the Pacific), I'm usually waiting for them to catch up to me. And I'm quite willing to share retro-squee. I can totally understand what you're saying about wanting to share in it while it's going on, though. But I guess for me, that deflates the experience all the way around because I cannot contribute to the squee until I have seen the ep, and my squee is much more squee-like if I don't know the reveals.

Thanks for joining in!

[alphabet26.livejournal.com]

Would knowing the trickster was in "Mystery Spot" be a spoiler? Oh, yeah, because he's one of the plot twists and reveals. He was also the MotW

I do get what you're saying, but,, at the same time, some people who are really good at that sort of thing and paying attention knew the Trickster was there simply because they remembered the actor's name. As soon as they saw it in the opening credits, they were gonna know, even if they had been spoiler free. So I honestly do get what you mean about casting spoilers, but it's not like everything has been ruined once you know someone's there. The Trickster was supposed to be a surprise, yeah, but the big surprise was the Dean-staying-dead, Sam-learning-a-lesson part. I can see them trying to downplay that actor being in the ep in order to help with the surprise, but knowing that he's there isn't going to ruin too much, because there's still a lot more besides that in the episode.

Opening credits are a huge problem for people who don't want to read casting spoilers and one reason I think it's kind of useless to avoid them. I mean, like, in "Long Distance Call"--you could have avoided everything, but within the first five minutes, you saw "Jeffrey Dean Morgan" and then bam! You were in exactly the same boat as the person who'd read the teaser that JDM was going to be back for one episode. Exactly what he'd be doing and how and all that was still unknown, so knowing that John would be there? Well, I can try to avoid that spoiler, but I'll still know it from the opening credits, so I'm not going to try too hard. JMO and YMMV and all that.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

And that's where I'm a little bit different. I don't usually pay much attention to the opening creds the first time I watch a show; I'm watching the action going on on screen. The Trickster happened to be one that I don't know the actor's name, so even if I had been paying attention, I wouldn't have known. (ficwriter1966 brought up this very point--recognizing the "twist" in the opening creds--in a previous conversation somewhere.) And by the time you get to the opening creds, you're watching the show, so I'd consider the opening creds to be part of the viewing experience, for good or ill.

I believe I'd heard casting spoilers on JDM, but even if I hadn't, it was in the previews (which for me, for the most part, are fair game--though it is annoying when previews give away major plot points), so no biggie there. I do recall that a lot of JDM fans, knowing that he was going to be "in" the ep, were vastly disappointed that it was just his voice. (You might say he phoned in his performance. *insert rimshot here*)

Yes, YMMV. :-) I just sometimes enjoy that little squeal of "Ooh! Ellen's going to be in this one!" Which right now is something I'm very much hoping for.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

I'm sooo glad I was unspoiled for all of SPN S1 & S2. Watched them straight through on DVD. When Sam got knifed? Gah!!!! And then Dean went and MADE THE DEAL!!!! Which I was so scared about him doing in Crossroad Blues. izhilzha can attest to my fretting over that after Crossroad Blues, and she didn't say a thing about AHBL. Gah!

And at the end of S1? I figured they were gonna have some sort of cliffie, but I totally did not see the semi-broadsiding-Impala coming. I just sat there stunned. The whole "That's just wrong!!!!" thing they had going. It's part of what makes TV so exciting to watch.

So, yeah, I'm with you on the not wanting to know too much. *nods*

[andromakhe001.livejournal.com]

In my case, I find that I like knowing ahead better, because then when they do something something I don't like, I've had time to prepare for it.

As for the rest, I feel if a story is good, it's going to work regardless of whether you know every detail beforehand or not. After all you only see something for the first time once, any other viewing you know everything that is going to happen. I find I can pay attention better knowing spoilers. Besides pretty much NOTHING is a surprise if you've read enough or watched enough TV and movies, you can usually see where something is going pretty quickly or at least know it's one of the possible directions. I've rarely been surprised by anything they've done on Supernatural, even things I wasn't spoiled for, but I have at times been presently surprised by the execution. I tend to expect the worst but silently hope for the best.

I know what I like and what I don't like and, not knowing beforehand doesn't make me like what I don't like any more than if I'd not known. :) It just makes me less likely to throw something at the TV.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

After all you only see something for the first time once, any other viewing you know everything that is going to happen.

This is true. For myself, I find that if I know things ahead of time, I don't get even that pleasure of "seeing something for the first time." I know what's going to happen, so I'm not seeing it unfold with fresh eyes. Repeated viewings allow me to observe the nuances.

Re: nothing ever being a surprise . . . I think I'd find TV viewing to be a very boring experience if that were the case for me. Movies, too. Because I'm finding that more and more, while I like "good" endings, and "happy" endings if they're appropriate ("good" and "happy" not necessarily being the same thing), if I see the outcome being telegraphed a mile away, I'm not as engaged.

That's not to say I won't disengage in something if it ends up totally rubs me the wrong way, but I still get a kick of unexpected turns in my favorite shows.

Thanks for answering. It's interesting hearing why people who like spoilers like to be spoiled.

[kerravonsen]

I really don't like spoilers, so I probably shouldn't be commenting. But I don't mind knowing "this is a good ep, this is a crap ep" beforehand, if I remind myself to take such things with a grain of salt. It allows me to brace myself for the bad, and thus enjoy the "bad" episode more -- but if I build up a good episode too much, I am always dissappointed. Hence the grain of salt.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

No, no. I'm looking for all types of opinions. And I'm all for the "This was a good ep," though if it's a bad ep, I'd kind of like to reserve judgment and decide for myself. Bracing for the bad has its good points and it bad points, but yes, if an ep gets built up too much, it can be a let-down.

[ficwriter1966.livejournal.com]

Thanks for hosting such an interesting discussion, Felicia! It's got me thinking again about how the definition of "spoiler" varies so widely across the fandom. I've chatted with a couple of folks who want to know *nothing*. Zero. Nada. (Although I assume they would want to know, is it a new episode or a rerun.) Some folks don't want to know titles, because in some instances the title suggests the theme of the episode. Some don't want to know casting. Some are OK with casting and blurbs (as in TV Guide). Some (like me) are "anything goes."

Unfortunately, the trouble with being spoiler-free (especially to the extent where you want to know NOTHING) in this Internet age is that a number of folks either don't know how to keep spoilers under wraps, or they don't care if they spoil you. It's easy enough to go surfing for new in-person photos or info on a previous ep, and stumble across a major spoiler. Then, too, the promo monkeys seem to have no grasp on the concept of "Don't give away the major plot points in your promos" (text blurbs or clips). I think, these days, to remain 100% spoiler free, you have to live in a cave.

As someone who, even as a 10-year-old, would anxiously await the new TV Guide so I could see what was coming up on my favorite shows, I have to say I'm puzzled at people who'd feel upset at knowing something like "the boys go home to Lawrence" or "the boys work with Bela to save Bobby's life" or "the boys are captured by their old nemesis Agent Henriksen." When I read things like that, I go, "Yeah??? Awesome! Is it Thursday yet?!" Little shiny tidbits like that *totally* enhance my squee. To me, someone saying they don't want those is like saying they don't want cookies. 'Tis a puzzlement.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

I totally see where you're coming from on a lot of these. Yeah, to be 100% spoiler free you do have to live in a cave. And TVGuide blurbs are (usually) fair game for me (TVGuide articles and interviews are a little more problematic). Even if I don't want to be spoiled, I can't help reading the synopsis of upcoming eps. Those create more what I'd call anticipatory squee than actual spoilerage. That's "coming attractions" and holds a squee factor of its own.

And knowing general story arcs for the upcoming season (John and Mary as teens, solving the mystery of how Dean gets out of Hell--which I think is a mystery because the *writers* haven't figured it out yet) isn't really that big a deal, and not something that can really be avoided unless you do move into a cave. But knowing a blow-by-blow of what's gonna happen? Like with sides and stuff? That puzzles me. Because while a good story might be a good story regardless of whether you know about it or not, your first experience at discovering the story as a viewer isn't as it's intended to be experienced. Does that make sense?

And one of the things that really bugs me (and I'm not accusing anyone in this conversation--though you, Carol, are a temptress) is people who don't care, or who--worse yet--purposely spoil things. Because they take away that joy of experience for someone new. I confess to accidentally spoiling some people for some things, but I've also been told that I'm really good at saying a lot without actually saying anything when it comes to squee vs. spoilerage.

Yeah, it is interesting what different people consider spoilers, isn't it? :-)

[ficwriter1966.livejournal.com]

I'll confess to wearing my Temptress ensemble now and again - but I've been trying very hard to bury all the spoilery stuff so there's nothing more than an eyelash peeping out (if that much). I don't even mention titles any more, just numbers.

As far as the sides go, whoever puts them together for the casting people has been a bit more adept this year at cutting-and-pasting, so there's been nothing that's like, "WHOA!!!! OMG!!!" - totally ruining the plot points. They've (so far, at least) been like big stompin' ol' teasers. What's worse than those? The Director's Cuts (the scenes that go online a few days before the ep airs). Can I resist those? Oh noooooo. Do they take away some of the delightful surprise of letting the ep unspool all fresh and shiny? Well, yeah. But I can live with it. I think it's that FDA-approved Daily Sammy (and Dean) Requirement that's messing me up.

Yes, I agree with you about the folks who don't care (or are just plain dumb), and have spoilers careening all over their posts, un-LJ-cut. Poor Dragons seems to shriek at them periodically, to no avail. If that kind of person is on someone's flist, I guess you have to cut 'em. Because it's kind of a situation of, you know they won't change, and if you keep 'em on your Friends Page, *then* who's at fault? (Not to levy criticism; I'm just saying, people are what they are.)

Right now? It seems to boil down to the chief culprits being the CW promo department. And anyone associated with the show who's allowed to speak in public. The rest of us just spread it around. Like fertilizer.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

but I've been trying very hard to bury all the spoilery stuff so there's nothing more than an eyelash peeping out (if that much).

That would be your spoiler burqa?

Ooohh . . . I never watch the director's cut before watching the show. It's interesting to me how much the experience of viewing the ep will affect my attitude toward it. Watching a director's cut on a little computer screen? Grainy and getting stuck in the download? Um . . . no. Heck, it drives me up a wall that our CW affiliate won't broadcast in widescreen. I have to wait for the iTunes downloads if I want to see the whole picture.

And don't even get me started on the pop-up ads that clutter the picture.

Right now, I am totally lacking in my FDA requirements for Sammy and Dean. I'm trying to supplement it with DVDs, iTunes, and fic, and now YouTube clips, but still . . . *points to blood test results* see? Deficient.

I completely agree with the spoilers on the friends page, and I appreciate that you are conscious enough of it (as are all on my f-list) to put things behind a cut. Because there's accidental spoilage, and there's setting yourself up to be spoiled.

I've noticed that about the production people who speak in public. And I've noticed that Jensen is particularly careful not to reveal too much. Jared is very conscientious, too, but Kripke? Dude, stop before you say too much (I skipped over his answers to some of the questions in the SDCC clips).