SPN finale question for the f-list

[feliciakw]

Okay, so. I recently saw a theory about "Let It Be Bleed," wherein the poser of said theory insists that Cas changed history when he did Lisa's memory wipe. According to this person, it's incredibly obvious that Cas didn't just wipe Lisa's memory, but also went back in time and prevented Lisa and Dean from ever meeting.

This theory bothers me immensely, for reasons I won't get into (unless someone wants to know). And in my limited wanderings of the internet, this is the only person I've seen to propose this "obvious" theory.

So, f-listies, did any of you get the impression or interpretation that Cas not only did a memory wipe but also changed history for everyone (except Dean, Sam, and Bobby)? 'Cause I certainly did not.

I'd particularly like to pose this question to Blacklid and Tahirire, since you ladies think way more outside the box than I do.

Comments

[ficwriter1966.livejournal.com]

Hmm. No, I didn't get that impression at all. Not a change of history (because it seemed plain that Dean remembered the whole thing) but a plain old memory-wipe. With its attendant complications.

You might be interested in bellatemple's look at the situation from Lisa's POV, here:
http://bellatemple.livejournal.com/602341.html

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Yes, I saw Bella's fic posted. I'll read it when I have the time.

I also wrote something just a few days after the ep aired.

Just One Year (http://feliciakw.livejournal.com/365318.html)

I suspect--and this is just from my own gut, so that and $1.00 will get you a soda from a roadside vending machine--that this person holds a deep-seated hatred of Lisa and wants to see her eliminated from the time line, along with any possibility that she will return.

But this person is the only person I've seen to interpret events as having been changed in history, rather than a plain memory-wipe (however far reaching that wipe had to be).

Thank you for your in-put. :-)

[leelust.livejournal.com]

Not Blacklid or Tahirire but i didn't get that impression at all. Why to wipe her memory if he planned to change the whole history of their relationship with Dean? It's one or another right? And Dean clearly knew who they are (hence all the angst) otherwise there's no point in Dean's sacrifice.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Thank you! Yes, the whole changing history theory is problematic in many more regards, I think, than the memory wipe. The way the person explained Dean still remembering, was because Sam and Dean still remembered the alternate timeline in the Titanic episode. Still, that was a different scenario.

Also, it seemed to me that Lisa had some sort of subconscious recollection of Dean, like she was supposed to know him, and was disappointed when she didn't. That wouldn't really work with a "change of history."

Thanks for your in-put. :-)

[leelust.livejournal.com]

I'm not remembering well the facts of the show now but i thought they remembered that timeline because they were supposed to. If Cas would change history for Dean-Lisa to never happen they wouldn't suppose to remember anything otherwise there's no point in changing.
I did have the same feeling about Lisa in the end. that she was struggling to remember Dean but couldn't. It actually could be a good fic going into AU where she would be able to fight it and remember him and welcome him back. I'd love to read something like that.

[blacklid.livejournal.com]

You know that saying of Winston Churchill's, "History is written by the victors"...

It is well-known that a few fans never held any affection for Lisa, so for the writers to create a scenario where the ultimate tragedy removes her from Dean's life completely, it's a double-win situation because both kinds of fans are served: those who dislike her will be happy and those who love her will be deeply affected by that sacrifice, you know?

I guess that's still not enough for some people, and they'll try to peddle their own version of events as the truth. From the comments here so far, it seems to be going about as well as Palin's efforts to rewrite Paul Revere into a traitor. Some people just prefer to shoot the messenger? :)

The whole point of forgetting, though, and making them forget while Dean remembered, was supposed to be a reflection of a whole lot of aspects of the family dynamics since the beginning of the show and how those memories or a particular knowledge informed the actions of the characters. I'm thinking of In My Time of Dying and Croatoan and Swap Meat and 2 Minutes to Midnight to name a few, all times when what you know, or don't know, can have a huge effect on the future.

During this season, the writers made it very obvious through his specific trials (no fluff pieces for Cas this year) that Castiel would try to affect the future through knowledge, not weaponry, but that when he was faced with changing the past, he drew that line. They set all of that up so that when the last memory (of Ben's) is erased and Sam and Dean's are not, it was to leave an impression about how rock solid humanity can be in the face of discontinuity, and didactically how blessed - or cursed - Sam and Dean are that they can't seem to permanently forget things no matter how much they might like to. To setup that question of: what makes them so special?

In short, I guess you could say that your friend was focused on a singular tone when the whole song for all the characters plays much more broadly and informatively than that...

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Soooo . . . no history change or alteration to the timeline.

I'd have to watch it again, but wasn't it Cas who had Balth go back and unsink the Titanic? It seems at that point that Cas is not adverse to changing history to affect the present.

And of course now that I think about it, it's possible that Balthazar drew attention to himself the way he did in order to clue the Winchesters in so that things would eventually be corrected and returned to the original history of events.

I do think Sera did an admirable job of removing Lisa and Ben with the utmost angst to Dean without killing them off. Kudos to her.

[blacklid.livejournal.com]

Well, time is fluid. Changing the future does change history, but altering the past does it in a different way than altering the future would do. Maybe I'm being too esoteric...

Maybe at the time, Cas asked Baltie to unsink her so that lives would be spared, and that was the only explanation given or needed. The "in for a penny" as it were. It wasn't until Fate called Cas on the change that B realized that there was something fishy afoot (pun intended).

Even then, MHWGO wasn't so much about changing the past being wrong as it was about saving lives being wrong (because who is to say that those souls all would have been available to Cas for his war machine - the logic doesn't pan out - he ultimately reversed his reversal to save the boys) ... and what a departure that thinking is from five years ago, when people were saved no matter what the cost. Now the boys can see the balance of the universe in action, something they never would have experienced when they were simply young, human boys looking for their father.

Anyway, I ramble. The red herrings have red herrings! LOL

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

I think I'm a much more linear thinker than you are. :-) 'Tis why I asked. I'm looking at the scene in a more linear fashion. We were not presented with any indication that history had been changed, so it never occurred to me as a possibility. I was wondering if someone with a less constantly linear approach, who thinks farther outside the box, saw the "obvious" explanation of a history change.

I got to thinking about the logic of MHWGO, too, and wondered what Cas's logic was.

I can appreciate the boys learning balance (though Dean is still all about the "saving people" portion of the mission *smishes him*), but I think what bothered me about all of that in MHWGO is Cas's change in attitude toward humans. Back in "Great Pumpkin," he admired humans as God's handiwork and masterpiece. Now, with the Titanic thing, they seem to be a means to an end, unless he has a personal relationship with them.

[blacklid.livejournal.com]

I can appreciate the boys learning balance (though Dean is still all about the "saving people" portion of the mission *smishes him*), but I think what bothered me about all of that in MHWGO is Cas's change in attitude toward humans. Back in "Great Pumpkin," he admired humans as God's handiwork and masterpiece. Now, with the Titanic thing, they seem to be a means to an end, unless he has a personal relationship with them.

So very true, and an important distinction that this sentiment was something that Sammy never lost... until he was soulless, that is. And since angels don't have souls the way that we define it, Castiel's actions make sense but are still tragic.

TLDR comments from me, LOL, but I loved this season and I wish I'd had time to continue the reviews. Maybe someday.

[tahirire.livejournal.com]

Ah, a summons! *ahem*

I do not believe that Cas changed the past. For one thing, in the Titanic episode we saw how drastic altering the past could end up being - altering DEAN'S past would be nothing short of suicidal on Cas's part - if Dean didn't grow up to be the man who went to Hell and needed to be saved, Cas would have never been set on HIS path, either. No ... I think it was just memories. A good example is, have you ever seen the Butterfly Effect? Ashton Kutcher's character always remembered every timeline (just like how Sam and Dean remember all of THEIR A/U timelines they've been in, like the Titanic Ep and the djinn world and the future), but the characters that he loved and was trying to save never did, they only remembered the one they were living in at that moment.

:)



Psst, also, it's 'Let it bleed'.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Exactly my point! If Dean had never met Lisa, that could potentially change or eliminate in any way, shape, or form how Dean's original weekend with Lisa affected where he was at any given time due to his being there at that particular time in that particular space.

I have not seen The Butterfly Effect, but I think I get the gist of the movie. And it really rather makes me ponder exactly what these other AUs have been to the boys. The only one that was truly an AU as I see it was the Titanic ep. WIaWSNB was more of a dream; it was all in Dean's head. "The End" was, I think, most likely a machination of Zach's. Or possibly a "potential" future. "Always in motion is the future," as Yoda says. The "real" world in TFM was an actual alternate reality (or angel invention), like criss-crossing wormholes. And for the Titanic AU, I tend to see their retention of the memories as more a knowledge of "what might have been," rather than actually carrying differing lifetimes of memories. (Growing up in a Mustang rather than the Impala, for example.)

Excellent. Thanks.

Also? Correction duly noted. I guess now you know what song runs through my head every time I see that title. Heh.