Well, hm . . . .

[feliciakw]

I think I've read this fic. Or at least parts of it.

This isn't the squee of last week, though there were certainly moments that amused me greatly. It's been a long time since Dean has taken care of a baby, huh. Either that, or John wasn't as hands-off as fandom would lead us to believe.

There was some good--though very uncomfortable--character stuff going on here. I'll have to cogitate on it.

We lost Mark! Already! If the rest of the Campbells aren't baddies, then their days are numbered, methinks.

Though there is some understandable mistrust between Dean and the Campbells, I gotta say that I kinda felt for Christian and his wife, for reasons that should be apparent to those who've been following this LJ.

However, throwing Dean's time in the Pit back at him? Low blow, dude. Totally uncalled for.

Lisa continues to be awesome. It kinda hurt when she told Dean to leave, because I knew how Dean was going to hear it. But Lisa being the awesome gal that she is, I'm glad she pointed out that it doesn't have to be an either/or proposition. She thinks outside the box. Here's hoping I get my Harvelle dynamic.

Also, she's a quick study with a semi-automatic. Though kalquessa? She called it a clip. I cringed on your behalf.

Poor Ben. Wants to do what Dad Dean does. It's probably the first time Dean has raised his voice to Ben since he moved in.

I really hope that we see more of Lisa and Ben from time to time. That Dean calls and checks in on a regular basis.

And who was Samuel talking to, anyway?

Dean uncovering the Impala, with a genuine smile. That sort of took the edge off. Because I do love to see him smile.

(Geo said that that sequence with the Impala was A) like the scene when Sweeney Todd gets his razors back; and B) their version of porn. I agreed with him on both counts.)

I just . . . I'll have to see this one again before I can say any more about it. Some fun stuff, good character stuff, some uncomfortable stuff, and questions.

I just don't know how I feel about this one. There wasn't anything wrong with it but it was just . . . discomfiting.

ETA: If things continue in this manner, this season is gonna give "it's about family" a whole 'nother twist. Yeesh.

Comments

[leelust.livejournal.com]

Lisa IS awesome. Also Dean with the baby wasn't bad at all :)

But... but... everything but that was... boring.
and there was something that infuriated me. However, throwing Dean's time in the Pit back at him?
This. I can't believe Sam told them! I... no negativity in your place so i need to go now to vent.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

I was not all that impressed with the case. I mean, ooohhh something is snatching babies . . . that could have been interesting. Oh! Goblins, perhaps. But a retread on the shapeshifter? Meh.

I can think of a number of scenarios wherein Sam might have told them about Dean's time in the Pit without meaning for it to be malicious or a betrayal. Doesn't mean it wasn't a breach of confidence, but it adds to the potential layers of "WT??? is wrong with you, Sam?" No, I was more ticked at Chris throwing it at Dean, though I'm coming to the conclusion that none of the Campbell cousins have a soft touch. And I know you hate Sam with a white-hot passion, so I won't press the issue.

[leelust.livejournal.com]

It's not even about the hate i have for Sam. I can see he could tell them about Dean being in hell and breaking the first seal and i would be disappointed in him doing that but not furious (because it's sam and he does that left and right) but telling them the most private thing Dean shared with him? No. I see no scenarios that could justify what he did.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Whereas I can think of scenarios that would explain (not "justify," but explain) why he'd tell them about it. Because he couldn't tell them about breaking the first seal without explaining how it happened and why.

And I'm not sure you can look at Sam objectively anymore. The fact that you hate Sam so much biases what you see in the character, regardless of what he does. Which is why I don't think we'll ever agree on the character's motivations, much less whether or not what he does can be explained or forgiven.

[leelust.livejournal.com]

Well, i hate Sam when he does something that hurts Dean, when he doesn't i'm indifferent to him.

But i don't see why talking about breaking the first seal would lead to explaining why. I mean *we* as the audience know that Dean told sam about what happened with him in hell but the Campbells clearly didn't know so if Sam wouldn't want to reveal Dean's secret he could tell them he doesn't know and it would be understandable because they don't know Dean either and don't know if he's willing to share something very private with sam or not. I think sam chose to tell them about Dean's time in hell because they wanted/liked info like that and he wanted to look good in his eyes.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

I don't have enough information from the show to make that kind of determination regarding Sam's motives.

If explaining their (Sam and Dean's) role in starting the Apocalypse led to Sam revealing that Dean broke the first seal, to me the next logical step would be for Sam to tell the Campbells that Dean didn't know he was breaking the first seal, he was tortured into it, and after 30 years of unbearable torture, when Alistair offered to take Dean off the rack of Dean put souls on, Dean said yes, and that was the first seal.

But Sam saying he doesn't know how Dean broke the first seal is going to be disingenuous, and I doubt the Campbells would have believed him. It took both brothers to start the Apocalypse. Sam saying he didn't know how Dean did it isn't going to fly. Because for all they would know, Dean knew what he was doing when he did it. So for Sam to explain that it wasn't Dean's fault makes sense to me.

Hate or indifference, I understand that you're inclined to see the worst in the character. That's your choice, of course. I'm just more inclined to try to see things from both characters' points of view, I guess. *shrug*

[leelust.livejournal.com]

But that's the point. We now judge characters from what we saw and know NOW. If we'd discuss everything after the season was over there would be no discussion at all because we already would knew everything. Discussions are usually based on theories and what show decided to give us to build those theories.

I see your point in explaining Sam's motives and i would agree if sam wouldn't know how important this secret was for Dean. If it would be just another wound or hunt went wrong i wouldn't see any problem with him telling in to Campbells. but he knew how important it is for Dean and how private it was and he ignored it. And it's not the first time actually.
See, everyone knows that the souls in hell are tortured. But not everyone knows that Dean was asked to torture himself. Sam could assume that Dean was tortured and broke and that was the first seal (because at some lever it was) and he could leave the torturing thing aside and not mention it because the Campbells didn't have any proof if he was lying to them or not.
Also explaining that it wasn't Dean's fault would mean that at that time sam cared about Dean but him t not telling Dean he's alive tells me sam didn't care about Dean all that year. So i assume he told them abouot torturing not because he was explaining that the first seal wasn't Dean's fault but because Campbells were interested in master for torture or something like that. It could make sense considering the cage in the truck and them ctching monsters alive (i won't be surprised if they're experimenting on them).

I'm just more inclined to try to see things from both characters' points of view, I guess
It's ok but seeing things from sam's POV doesn't make it right for me. I can see why he would tell the Campbells but i can't justify it and actually i don't want to. I think the sooner sam will get a wake up call the better.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Also explaining that it wasn't Dean's fault would mean that at that time sam cared about Dean but him t not telling Dean he's alive tells me sam didn't care about Dean all that year.

This is another point I can't really go with. Sam is distant and has weird and misguided reasons for doing what he did, but I don't think that he no longer cares for Dean. We're not getting the whole story, but if it comes out that Sam no longer has any feelings of affection of any sort for Dean, that . . . won't work.

It's ok but seeing things from sam's POV doesn't make it right for me. I can see why he would tell the Campbells but i can't justify it and actually i don't want to.

Of course seeing something from someone's point of view doesn't make it right. If I've given the impression that I approve of what Sam's been doing, I'm not communicating myself clearly. But seeing something from someone else's point of view helps us understand why he does what he does, and though it doesn't justify it, it will hopefully help us learn.

I think the sooner sam will get a wake up call the better.

Well, that, at least, we agree on. Though after tonight's ep, I'm not convinced that there isn't something going on that is maybe hampering or suppressing Sam's Sammy-ness.

[just-ruth.livejournal.com]

*dryly* Samuel was talking to the head of the secret government agency that's been monitoring the Supernatural monster situation.

played by David Duchovny, of course.

[girlyghoul70.livejournal.com]

Yeppers. That'd do!

[sarcasticval.livejournal.com]

Win.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Yes, this makes perfect sense. Because in in the back of my mind, I thought, "This plot seems familiar." (I.e., a creature that changes itself in order to impregnate women. He convinced one woman, in fact, that he was Luke Skywalker.) And then I remembered: Ah, yes. It was an episode of XF.

:-/

[izhilzha.livejournal.com]

HAHAHA YES! \o/

Fic nao, plz.

[girlyghoul70.livejournal.com]

You are much much kinder to this episode than I could be. I was made very mad... but then I saw this thing with a Panda and now I'm back to my usual bubbly self. MA HA! Muchas Gracias blacklid!

There was so much wrong about it, Dean's initial cluelessness about how to handle the baby being a big part of it. And it's not just Fandom's idea he took care of a baby, the Show brought up over and over again how he spent his whole life taking care of Sam- of course he had previous baby experience but they chose to Guttenberg him as well as Sam for cheap chuckles. But the worst crime was like leelust said- the boring. But no more negativity here, I ranted plenty already. Ahhh... cleansing ranty rant!

[sarcasticval.livejournal.com]

I find it interesting that people found this episode boring, because I thought last week was incredibly dull, but rather enjoyed tonight! Someday I will skew with everyone else! Someday.

I didn't really get a "d'oh" vibe from Dean in regards to babies. As far as the fanon issue of Dean caring for an infant Sam...he was four. My younger sister and I have a similar age gap to the brothers Winchester, and I barely remember any of her first few years from when I was a tyke, let alone if I ever changed a diaper. Also, it's one thing to have experience with a particular situation almost 30 years ago, but another entirely to be able to jump back into the swing of things like a pro. I can totally understand the boy not suddenly being able to pull a Rain Man with child care.

I apologize for hijacking this post with my overly verbose blahs! You've given me interesting points to think about!

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Yes. Thanks for the input. I would have liked Dean to have shown a clue and not seems so scared about holding the baby, but the nitty gritty of caring for an infant? Your explanation makes sense. Especially with the intervening decades.

I haven't read my f-list yet, but no apologies for hijacking the thread.

I will confess that I did not find this to be the most riveting case they've had (that's two retreaded villains in two weeks), but some of the character stuff was good. We'll see if I like it any better on re-watch.

[izhilzha.livejournal.com]

What you said about Dean being four when Sam was a baby. It's not until I was 7 that I could really help with the small siblings all that much--I imagine Dean did a lot to, say, entertain baby Sam, but that's it. (And he really did have the fanon kid-caring thing down in this ep, which tickled me. Eeeeheehee, Dean, ILU.)

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Isn't the earliest we see Dean taking care of Sammy by himself when Sam is about, what, four or five? It's implied that the sitch is not new, that Dean is an "old hand" at taking care of his brother, but . . . we have nothing to indicate that he changed Sam's diapers when Sammy was an infant. That is (extrapolated) fanon. Plus there are indications that there was a network of adults that helped take care of the boys. So while I would have liked for Dean to at least have shown a clue that picking up the baby and cuddling him might have quieted him, I'm gonna go with Val here and say that some of the lack of finesse makes a modicum of sense.

I have not yet checked my f-list this morning (just got up. Weird dreams last night), but I'm kind of afraid to.

[sarcasticval.livejournal.com]

You've kind of inspired me to do a post. It'll have to be from memory, though, since I already deleted the episode. Whoops!

[(Anonymous)]

YAY IMPALA PORN TO SMOKE ON THE WATER!! *dances the happy dance*

I quite enjoyed the ep, myself. *grin* It was fun to see the boys so out of their depth and it warmed my shriveled little heart to see Dean actually not suck at baby-whispering. Almost as much as it warmed my heart to see Sam flailing around like a six-month-old infant was the most unsettling thing he'd ever encountered. And of course the whole topic of babies is something I devote a lot of headspace to right now, so this was just all-around fun for me. I really hope that the Campbells genuinely intended to raise the little shifter as their own. Dean's completely understandable reaction aside, I think raising a baby monster to fight monsters is an awesome idea. It worked well for Hellboy, at least.

Also: Magazine. Magazine, magazine, magazine. No one trained by a hard-ass Marine would ever teach someone else to call it a clip. *facepalms* Hollywood is almost as clueless about guns as it usually is about marriage and religion.

[kalquessa.livejournal.com]

This was me. My computer is in pieces, and I forgot that Mr. Bill's machine doesn't have me eternally logged on to everything.