SPN - 5.03 - initial impressions

[feliciakw]

1. This is a very uncomfortable ep.
2. It hurts.
3. My brain hurts.
4. I don't know what to do with this information.
5. Fix story, plz?

I . . . there's stuff in this ep that I just don't know what to do with. It hurts. Obviously, I'm not down with Dean trying to corrupt Castiel. Aside from the obvious personal reasons, it feels like fic. In the same way that fic that retreads where Show has gone kind of annoys me, I find that Show retreading where fic has gone kind of annoys me, too. Which is silly, because Show has priority over fic, but, yeah. Not so much in the like department. Particularly with this particular little plot device.

And I'm sad to say that this ep has me re-evaluating my feelings about Dean. I'll have to re-watch the ep because I missed some of his lines, but . . . his attitude and behavior kind of unsettled me.

And Dean says he's fine alone? Yeah, Dean, like I really believe you on that one. Okay without Sam? Meh, yeah, whatever. But okay alone? I'm not convinced.

I just . . . I don't know what to do with this information.

And "Hector Williams" as Raphael. First, wow. So not the Hector I knew and loved. Also Raphael being so . . . disbelieving. And kinda mean-spirited. Ouch.

Lucifer and Sam . . . Someone fix the story, plz? I . . . Show is making me very nervous, and I don't like having to wait a week between eps. Neither am I particularly fond of the direction the story is going.

It all makes me very uncomfortable and makes me want to pull away from show.

It will get better, right? Right?

(As a completely speculative aside, I think I now understand why Jensen was quick to point out at VanCon that they will be doing some old school stand-alones. The mytharc has taken some very dark and uncomfortable and awkward turns, and I just kind of wonder how the actors feel about it. I could be entirely reading my own interpretation into this, but I get the distinct impression that Jensen misses and/or prefers the old school storylines with Dean and Sam working together. Or maybe that's just me.)

Comments

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

I almost put it in my original entry, but decided maybe I should re-watch the ep/scene before I said anything. But I'll go ahead and mention it, with the caveat that upon re-watch I might get something different out of it.

The whole Dean trying to get Castiel laid was tacky and awkward and yeah, whatever. No, what bothered me was the cavalier attitude . . . that read almost like . . . glee? . . . that Dean has toward the fact that absentee fathers play such a large factor in the prostitution industry. That's sad. It's sad that Dean would be glad these girls don't have fathers, thus leading them into an industry where men such as himself can pay them for sex. That just . . . makes me want to cry. My Dean has more compassion than that.

But like I said, I'll have to re-watch and listen for his vocal inflections. Maybe I can convince myself that he's simply stating a fact rather than defending it.

My name is Lynn

[(Anonymous)]

I hope you don't mind my commenting here. I was so disgusted that Dean took Castiel to a brothel that I missed the comment about absentee fathers. I think Dean identifies with the prostitutes. The shapeshifter in "Skin" told Rebecca, "he's all alone, close to no one. All he wants is for someone to love him. He's like me". Maybe the show is actually going to explain Dean's craving sex as more than lulz. I hope so.

Re: My name is Lynn

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Not at all. Welcome. Glad you stopped by.

I'll hopefully have more extended thoughts on the whole ep in a few days, so stay tuned. :-)

Yes, I can see everyone's point about Dean having his own abandonment issues and all. But . . . I don't see that line as particularly reading that point of view. But we shall see.

As far as Show exploring the psychological root cause of Dean's womanizing, I . . . really don't see that happening. :-/

And thank you for introducing yourself. It's nice to at least have a name to put to an anonymous post. :-)

[leelust.livejournal.com]

I for sure don't miss them working together :)
Anyway, i didn't see Raph as mean-spirited. More like tragic. He's lost. He's angry that he's lost. I likes his arc very much.
Not sure what unsettled you about Dean though. His attitude and his words about missing fathers gave Cas sp needed hope. And he clearly wasn't happy to be alone - watch the scene again. He can be partly right about not having sam around because sam (esp right now) is dead weight that drowning Dean but be alone? It's Dean's mask again. Bravado. Nothing else.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

I can't really explain things until I watch the ep again (with clearer pic and better sound). *points to my response to Carol* That's about as close as I can get to explaining it right now.

I am curious, though. If you could write the story, would you run two separate storylines indefinitely, keeping Sam and Dean apart? Or would you write Sam out of the show?

I understand what you're saying about Raph, and I see where you're coming from. There was definitely a sense of tragic despair going there. Perhaps mean-spirited wasn't the right term. But I did take exception to his threat to deliver Dean to Michael.

(And I really did like seeing that actor again, and in such a completely different role than I was used to seeing him.)

[kimmer1227.livejournal.com]

I'm in the need to rewatch category. I'm so damn tired, my eyes are crossing.

I'm mostly okay with Dean's attitude. I do agree he was lying out his butt, but do think he's feeling lighter having some of the family weight off his shoulders for once. How long has he felt that responsibility towards his family? Always. It's all he knows. It's how he identifies himself. If by lying to himself, he'll find a way to love Sam for Sam, and not out of some overwhelming sense of duty and responsibility, I'm happy. He'll figure it out.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

he'll find a way to love Sam for Sam, and not out of some overwhelming sense of duty and responsibility,

Yes, this. Which could have/would have/should have been the path he was on when the WGA strike so unceremoniously interrupted S3. Because that was a breakthrough that never got the opportunity to be followed up on. Maybe we'll get that now, yeah?

[andromakhe001.livejournal.com]

"And Dean says he's fine alone? Yeah, Dean, like I really believe you on that one. Okay without Sam? Meh, yeah, whatever. But okay alone? I'm not convinced."

Why would that be a bad thing? Dean should be able to be OK on his own. To be able to see he can live and not feel crushed and invisible and like he doesn't exist. Because that is what it was like for Dean. It's a horrible thing to feel like you'll essentially cease to exist or have meaning if a couple of other specific people(who have a tendency to take off and leave you) aren't around.

Given Dean probably has father issues as bad as most of the girls I wouldn't read much into it. I think it was more advice for Castiel on how NOT to have girls screaming at him and freaked out - they all have issues, you kind of can't bring it up - than lack of sympathy for the girls issues.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

The way I see things, there's a difference between being okay alone and being Okay alone. Yes, I think Dean can take care of himself. For the most part, I think he always has been able to take care of himself. Can he hunt alone? Sure. That was kind of established in the pilot episode when Sam pointed out that Dean could do the job alone, and Dean said, "Yeah, but I don't want to."

That's what I think the issue is. Dean is a social person. He wants to work with a partner. He wants to have someone to watch his back and bounce cases off of and fill in blanks with. There's nothing wrong with that. He does need to learn that he has worth apart from his responsibility to and for Sam--the stuff you mention--but to prefer companionship over lone-ness (or loneliness--as opposed to aloneness) is not a character flaw. That's what I mean by I don't think he'll be okay alone. For him, too much aloneness leads to loneliness. He's the type of person who needs companionship--the companionship of someone who knows how to show Dean he/she values him in such a way that he'll understand and believe.

I hope that made sense.

[izhilzha.livejournal.com]

I agree that there is some discomfiting stuff going on (for one, hasn't Dean in the past bragged about not needing to pay for female companionship?); but I LOVED Castiel's actual response to the hooker: to tell her it wasn't her fault her father left. <3<3<3 CAS.

And Dean says he's fine alone?

I believe him partway. I believe that he's somehow managed to let go, partially, of being wholly responsible for Sam and Sam's wellbeing, and it's actually really good for him. (His part of the ep with Cas was, like, the beneficial version of "Sex and Violence.")

But did you see the look on his face when Cas left? Yeah, not so much fine being completely alone. Never that. {{{{{Dean}}}}}

HAHA I TOTALLY CALLED SAM BEING LUCIFER'S POTENTIAL/FUTURE VESSEL! I actually think this part of the arc has serious potential.

Not at all sure what to make of Raphael.

But sort of loved Dean relating Castiel's search for God to his own search for John.

We'll see if next week is utter crack or something better.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

hasn't Dean in the past bragged about not needing to pay for female companionship?

It's been implied, but when he goes to a brothel, I think he expects to have to pay. You'll also notice that Dean never goes into the back rooms. He has a drink with the girl at the bar, but he never requests her "services." (Which I find is an interesting point. I might have more to say about that later . . . )

I LOVED Castiel's actual response to the hooker: to tell her it wasn't her fault her father left.

Yes, this.

I believe him partway. I believe that he's somehow managed to let go, partially, of being wholly responsible for Sam and Sam's wellbeing, and it's actually really good for him. (His part of the ep with Cas was, like, the beneficial version of "Sex and Violence.")

Agreed. With a caveat. (See my response to andromahke above. Dean is a social person. He needs companionship of some sort. Someone to work with and bounce ideas off of and share the burden with. He's not a lone wolf. But it's very good for him not to feel responsible for Sam. Hopefully, when they join back up, they'll be able to be equal partners in this.

[izhilzha.livejournal.com]

Agreed. With a caveat.

Um...yes? Since I stated the exact same caveat in my own reply? (albeit with more squee and less clarity, lol). :)

It's been implied, but when he goes to a brothel, I think he expects to have to pay. You'll also notice that Dean never goes into the back rooms. He has a drink with the girl at the bar, but he never requests her "services."

Well, yes, that much would be obvious (ref. your first sentence). But I'm not as sold on Dean not actually requesting services--he may not have planned to, but it sure looked to me like he was enjoying himself as prelude to whatever (of course, he may very well have been planning on abstaining just to make sure he kept an eye--so to speak--on Castiel *g*).

I'm uncertain which we were supposed to take from these scenes, is all.

[kalquessa.livejournal.com]

I...kind of loved a lot about this ep. *hides* The mytharc hasn't gone anywhere irretrievably annoying, yet, and while I totally understand everybody's objections to the Dean-tries-to-get-Cas-laid thing, it didn't really bother me more than a little. Obviously I don't approve of anyone, angelic or otherwise, patronizing a brothel and it does sort of strike me as odd that Dean is portrayed as being fairly familiar with the scene since he doesn't seem to have much difficulty getting sex for free...but buying his angel a hooker just sounds like something Dean would do, to me. *shrug*

And that was really the only thing in the ep that really bothered me at all, that I can remember. I mean, other than Dean saying he's fine alone, without Sam, but that didn't bother me really because I know that it's ALL LIES!! *sticks fingers in ears*

The Sam-as-Lucifer's-vessel thing is something that's been kicked around before (I know Izh called this, and it seems like I've seen other folks call it, too) and I'm fine with it as it stands. It could certainly go places that I would find very...distressing. But it hasn't done so, yet, so I'm not worrying about it at the moment. Instead I am smiling serenely in the wake of all the shirtless Sam on offer in the teaser. Nothing makes things better like some shirtless Sam!

[izhilzha.livejournal.com]

Instead I am smiling serenely in the wake of all the shirtless Sam on offer in the teaser.

On top of the shirtless (and the T-shirt-only) Sam we got in this ep! \o/

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Obviously I don't approve of anyone, angelic or otherwise, patronizing a brothel and it does sort of strike me as odd that Dean is portrayed as being fairly familiar with the scene since he doesn't seem to have much difficulty getting sex for free...but buying his angel a hooker just sounds like something Dean would do, to me.

Agree to all points here. (Though it did bother me more than just a smidge.)

I totally believe that Dean is familiar with the brothel scene. Which doesn't mean he's had to patronize it. (I actually had a nebulous fic in the back of my mind a long while ago wherein one of John's shadier cohorts buys Dean a hooker to congratulate him on his first successful hunt--as a teen, possibly Dean's first time--and . . . John finds out. And things do not go well for Shady Cohort.) And it does sound like something Dean would do.

What we have going here for me is double discomfort. A) The scene itself, which I might be able to take more lightly, as you yourself do, were it not for the fact that B) it feels like fic. This fic has been written at least twice that I've run across. Probably more.

The Sam-is-Lucifer's-vessel surprised me not at all. I've heard it kicked around the fandom for quite some time. I don't even remember the first place I heard it.

Re: shirtless Sam . . . he is very pretty . . . He doesn't look too bad in the t-shirt, either.