"In the Beginning"
Oct. 4th, 2008 01:58 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
feliciakwUm . . . okay . . . wow. I'm not quite sure what to make of this episode. Ot1h, going in almost totally unspoiled (I knew it was a time travel ep, who the special guest star was going to be, and that we'd be meeting young Mary and young John--but other than that, zip) . . . going in unspoiled, I had some of the most jaw-dropping, visceral reactions I've had to TV since . . . Farscape, maybe?
Otoh, I'm really ambivalent about a lot of things in this ep. I'll be able to assimilate them eventually, because this is the information we're given. But seriously? I have mixed feelings.
Welcome to my inner monologue. I hope you can keep up, and I don't confuse you too much.
"Then": Oh, they didn't forget that. Or that! And they remembered that! We're getting some answers tonight.
"Now": Sam? Sammy? Where are you going? Don't leave! We miss you! And Dean's still asleep. You're sneaking out on him again? Do you not remember what sort of bad things happen when you do that? What???? Wait!!! Don't leave with her! Sammy!
Dean's PTSD dreams . . . Castiel says, "What were you dreaming about?" I'm thinkin', dude. Do you know what he's dreaming about? Are you making him dream about it? 'Cause, ya know, last week you told him you could send him back. You've been very cool the last couple of weeks. Don't blow it now.
Hey! It's a Tab ad!!!! \o/ I remember those! My childhood!
LOVED the whole homage to Back to the Future. "Winchester," and both John and Dean turn around. No, no, no. The line is "McFly!" Oh, but this guy is nice. He's not gonna beat anyone up.
1973! I was four. You do the math.
Um . . . John? You're a Marine? Just back from Vietnam? Um . . . Oooookay . . . I'm not seein' it. I like the whole "clean cut" contrast to the John we get as an adult, post-hunting, but . . . You're sure you're not in the Air Force? You're sure you saw combat? I'm not seein' it.
And I'm not sure if it's the writing of this incarnation of the character or the actor. As Jensen proves, a good actor can do wonders with poor writing. Jensen can make me buy almost anything that comes out of his mouth. But this guy either didn't have on the page what he needed, or, more likely, I think, is that he's a young Canadian actor who has no frame of reference for a US Marine returned from an incredibly bloody war. He was, as a friend said, "functional" as a representation of young John, but as a character, as the incarnation of young John? He was very bland and unconvincing. And pretty much not present.
Moving on . . .
Loved the DeLorean reference. And I totally knew that the "You have to stop it" had nothing to do with changing the past. It reminded me of Wonderfalls, wherein Jaye's animated advisors tell her to do something, and the directions they give her end up meaning five different things throughout the show, changing each time she's given an additional piece of information. If you've never seen Wonderfalls, what are you waiting for? It's great! Brilliant! I highly recommend. [/digression]
Wait . . . Dean talks John into buying the Impala? Oookay . . . so now we get into the time travel paradox. If Dean *hadn't* come back, would he and Sam have grown up in a VW van? I'm gonna go with the Dr. Who explanation of time travel: there are certain events that cannot be changed. They are bench marks, sign posts on the time continuum, and they cannot be altered. I think this ep is all about that. In essence, Dean didn't change or influence anything. John still would have bought the Impala, the YED still would have set his sights on Mary, etc.
Moving on . . .
Dean, stop while you're ahead. Cold spots? Okay. Rotten eggs? He's starting to look at you funny. Cattle mutilations? Yeah, know when to stop. Hee!
Dean! You're driving a pinto! A Pinto hatchback! Geo LOLed at this. But, hey. I was raised in Pintos. My dad had two of them, a hatchback and a station wagon. Hee!
"Sammy, wherever you are, Mom's a babe. And I'm going to Hell. Again." Oh, Dean. You crack me up! Hee!
Wait . . . . Mary's a hunter? See my jaw drop, my hand slap over my mouth, and see me pause the Tivo so I can go call![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
izhilzha so I can hyperventilate at her. At this point, every fic I've ever started reading, only to discover that Mary made a deal with the demon, thus causing me to stop reading because I really don't like that turn of events, comes to mind. Jeremy Carver. Dude. You've been reading too much fic.
I'm amused that Dean is named after his grandmother and Sam is named after his grandfather. And their personalities seem to reflect this as well, with Deanna keeping the peace between Samuel and his child in much the same way Dean has always tried to keep the peace between Sam and John. And Samuel, with his hard edged hunting, much like we've seen in Sam when Dean is not there to temper the obsession.
And while we're talking about Samuel . . . Mitch Pileggi, ladies and gentlemen. Bravo!
"What sort of information have you gotten off the Web . . . oooof informants you've put together." Oh, Dean. Nice save. *smishes you, just because I can*
Samuel showing up as a priest . . . when Father Dean is already there. Again, Geo LOLed.
I love determined Dean.
I won't get into the time travel paradox implications of the journal, as that would take up too much space here to cover.
I will, however, say that I love that the story about the Colt was one of Mary's bedtime stories. Hee.
Jensen totally rocked the scene between Dean and Mary. He is simply amazing.
"On November 2, 1983, don't get out of bed, no matter what." Oh, Dean. That's Sammy she's trying to protect. How much must it hurt for you to say that?
Oh, Mary. You sound so much like your son Sam. Wanting a safe, normal life. And yes, crush Dean just a little more by saying that being raised to hunt is the worst possible fate you can imagine for your children. If only you knew that their training comes from John.
Again, I like the contrast they're going for between a pre-hunting John and a post-hunting John, because it's a side Dean and Sam never got to see. But the portrayal of it was lacking.
Castiel and Dean conversing in the car . . . At this point, I'm feeling a little bit of a re-hash of WIaWSNB. Dean? Honey? You've had to make this decision before--live a happy life or save people, hunt things. Of course this time the choice seems more viable, and it's not based on your own self perception. But keep that in mind.
Dean steals the Colt from Elkins. Um, okay . . . I'll roll with it, I suppose. I do like how they're using Dean's knowledge of the future to try to change the past . . . and the fact that it doesn't help is kind of interesting.
Showdown with the YED. Not much to say here. This is where Mary catches YED's eye? So, how did it go down without Dean's involvement? Because it did, or we're back at the time travel paradox.
At this point, let me say that one of the issues I have with the ep is that it is a time travel ep. I mean, I like that Castiel points out that time if fluid, and that there's a SPN way to do it, but it still really feels like sci-fi to me, and this isn't one of my sci-fi shows. It doesn't address sci-fi issues, and time travel is chock full of sci-fi issues. So, yeah. The show is horror and adventure and drama. Don't try to go mixing sci-fi in the mix, please? But as I said earlier, I'll roll with it.
Samuel offers Dean a surly compliment . . . that has to be pointed out to Dean as such. Oh, Dean.
I actually really liked Dean's conversation with Samuel about Mary being Dean's mother and how he knows what he knows. Then it turns out that Samuel is possessed by YED . . . shades--big, broad brush strokes--of "Devil's Trap."
Also, the evil monologuing by YED . . . the thing that caught my attention was YED's acknowledgement that only one thing has the juice to swing that (manipulating time), and Dean's got angels looking over his shoulder . . . confirmation from an outside source that Castiel is, indeed, an angel.
And how creepy is the whole "Are you one of my psychic kids?" sniffing Dean? *shudder*
Demon blood is better than Ovaltine. It'll make Sam big and strong. Um . . . okay, so does that mean that Sam would be psychic regardless? Interesting. And moot.
I love Dean's, "Look into my eyes. I'm the one who kills you." Yes.
Was distressed by the breaking of Deanna's neck. :-(
So. YED goes to nab Mary, and he . . . breaks John's neck. See me startle off the couch and slap a hand over my mouth.
And Mary makes a deal. See the other hand go over my mouth. So *this* is where the family gets their penchant for self-sacrificing deals. Except Mary didn't know what she was sacrificing at the time . . . which is Sam. You know, even with the lack of Sam in the ep, it's still All About Sam.
And how creepy was the YED/Mary lip lock? So very, very squicky on multiple levels.
And we're back in the motel. Dean couldn't stop it; he didn't change anything. At first, Castiel's "all roads lead to the same destination" thing irked me, but put in the context of this series of events, I get what he's saying, and it works. It didn't matter whether Dean was there or not; the outcome was the same.
Which begs the question, why? Why did Castiel have to send Dean back? I figure it's because, at this point, Dean's not gonna believe anything Castiel tells him without major convincing. Easier to show Dean what happened, even have him participate. That makes it real to Dean, because Dean only believes what he can see.
And now Dean is up to speed and knows everything "his side" knows.
And the coup de grâce. Sam has to be stopped (the "you have to stop it" mentioned earlier), and "if you don't do it, we will." I knew--I KNEW--it was going to come down to this. It's the same thing John told Dean in the hospital, only amped up by about 15 bajillion. So Castiel tells Dean where he can find Sam and . . .
"To Be Continued."
You did not hear me scream because once again, my jaw dropped and my hands (yes, plural this time) smacked over my mouth. However, had Geo not been on the phone at the time, and had I not been wanting not to spoil him, oh, yes. Screams aplenty. Again, I had flashbacks to the "To Be Continued" title card at the end of Farscape. (Yes, the FS cancellation has scarred me for life.)
And there you have it. There were some things I really liked about the ep, some things that made me start wondering again what John knew when, and some things that I'm just going to have to assimilate because I don't really like them, but they're part of canon now, and I must deal.
But the promos for next week have me totally stoked. It looks like it could be a tie-in with this week (dude, TBC), or it could be a MotW, which I'm so jonesing for right now.
Otoh, I'm really ambivalent about a lot of things in this ep. I'll be able to assimilate them eventually, because this is the information we're given. But seriously? I have mixed feelings.
Welcome to my inner monologue. I hope you can keep up, and I don't confuse you too much.
"Then": Oh, they didn't forget that. Or that! And they remembered that! We're getting some answers tonight.
"Now": Sam? Sammy? Where are you going? Don't leave! We miss you! And Dean's still asleep. You're sneaking out on him again? Do you not remember what sort of bad things happen when you do that? What???? Wait!!! Don't leave with her! Sammy!
Dean's PTSD dreams . . . Castiel says, "What were you dreaming about?" I'm thinkin', dude. Do you know what he's dreaming about? Are you making him dream about it? 'Cause, ya know, last week you told him you could send him back. You've been very cool the last couple of weeks. Don't blow it now.
Hey! It's a Tab ad!!!! \o/ I remember those! My childhood!
LOVED the whole homage to Back to the Future. "Winchester," and both John and Dean turn around. No, no, no. The line is "McFly!" Oh, but this guy is nice. He's not gonna beat anyone up.
1973! I was four. You do the math.
Um . . . John? You're a Marine? Just back from Vietnam? Um . . . Oooookay . . . I'm not seein' it. I like the whole "clean cut" contrast to the John we get as an adult, post-hunting, but . . . You're sure you're not in the Air Force? You're sure you saw combat? I'm not seein' it.
And I'm not sure if it's the writing of this incarnation of the character or the actor. As Jensen proves, a good actor can do wonders with poor writing. Jensen can make me buy almost anything that comes out of his mouth. But this guy either didn't have on the page what he needed, or, more likely, I think, is that he's a young Canadian actor who has no frame of reference for a US Marine returned from an incredibly bloody war. He was, as a friend said, "functional" as a representation of young John, but as a character, as the incarnation of young John? He was very bland and unconvincing. And pretty much not present.
Moving on . . .
Loved the DeLorean reference. And I totally knew that the "You have to stop it" had nothing to do with changing the past. It reminded me of Wonderfalls, wherein Jaye's animated advisors tell her to do something, and the directions they give her end up meaning five different things throughout the show, changing each time she's given an additional piece of information. If you've never seen Wonderfalls, what are you waiting for? It's great! Brilliant! I highly recommend. [/digression]
Wait . . . Dean talks John into buying the Impala? Oookay . . . so now we get into the time travel paradox. If Dean *hadn't* come back, would he and Sam have grown up in a VW van? I'm gonna go with the Dr. Who explanation of time travel: there are certain events that cannot be changed. They are bench marks, sign posts on the time continuum, and they cannot be altered. I think this ep is all about that. In essence, Dean didn't change or influence anything. John still would have bought the Impala, the YED still would have set his sights on Mary, etc.
Moving on . . .
Dean, stop while you're ahead. Cold spots? Okay. Rotten eggs? He's starting to look at you funny. Cattle mutilations? Yeah, know when to stop. Hee!
Dean! You're driving a pinto! A Pinto hatchback! Geo LOLed at this. But, hey. I was raised in Pintos. My dad had two of them, a hatchback and a station wagon. Hee!
"Sammy, wherever you are, Mom's a babe. And I'm going to Hell. Again." Oh, Dean. You crack me up! Hee!
Wait . . . . Mary's a hunter? See my jaw drop, my hand slap over my mouth, and see me pause the Tivo so I can go call
izhilzha so I can hyperventilate at her. At this point, every fic I've ever started reading, only to discover that Mary made a deal with the demon, thus causing me to stop reading because I really don't like that turn of events, comes to mind. Jeremy Carver. Dude. You've been reading too much fic. I'm amused that Dean is named after his grandmother and Sam is named after his grandfather. And their personalities seem to reflect this as well, with Deanna keeping the peace between Samuel and his child in much the same way Dean has always tried to keep the peace between Sam and John. And Samuel, with his hard edged hunting, much like we've seen in Sam when Dean is not there to temper the obsession.
And while we're talking about Samuel . . . Mitch Pileggi, ladies and gentlemen. Bravo!
"What sort of information have you gotten off the Web . . . oooof informants you've put together." Oh, Dean. Nice save. *smishes you, just because I can*
Samuel showing up as a priest . . . when Father Dean is already there. Again, Geo LOLed.
I love determined Dean.
I won't get into the time travel paradox implications of the journal, as that would take up too much space here to cover.
I will, however, say that I love that the story about the Colt was one of Mary's bedtime stories. Hee.
Jensen totally rocked the scene between Dean and Mary. He is simply amazing.
"On November 2, 1983, don't get out of bed, no matter what." Oh, Dean. That's Sammy she's trying to protect. How much must it hurt for you to say that?
Oh, Mary. You sound so much like your son Sam. Wanting a safe, normal life. And yes, crush Dean just a little more by saying that being raised to hunt is the worst possible fate you can imagine for your children. If only you knew that their training comes from John.
Again, I like the contrast they're going for between a pre-hunting John and a post-hunting John, because it's a side Dean and Sam never got to see. But the portrayal of it was lacking.
Castiel and Dean conversing in the car . . . At this point, I'm feeling a little bit of a re-hash of WIaWSNB. Dean? Honey? You've had to make this decision before--live a happy life or save people, hunt things. Of course this time the choice seems more viable, and it's not based on your own self perception. But keep that in mind.
Dean steals the Colt from Elkins. Um, okay . . . I'll roll with it, I suppose. I do like how they're using Dean's knowledge of the future to try to change the past . . . and the fact that it doesn't help is kind of interesting.
Showdown with the YED. Not much to say here. This is where Mary catches YED's eye? So, how did it go down without Dean's involvement? Because it did, or we're back at the time travel paradox.
At this point, let me say that one of the issues I have with the ep is that it is a time travel ep. I mean, I like that Castiel points out that time if fluid, and that there's a SPN way to do it, but it still really feels like sci-fi to me, and this isn't one of my sci-fi shows. It doesn't address sci-fi issues, and time travel is chock full of sci-fi issues. So, yeah. The show is horror and adventure and drama. Don't try to go mixing sci-fi in the mix, please? But as I said earlier, I'll roll with it.
Samuel offers Dean a surly compliment . . . that has to be pointed out to Dean as such. Oh, Dean.
I actually really liked Dean's conversation with Samuel about Mary being Dean's mother and how he knows what he knows. Then it turns out that Samuel is possessed by YED . . . shades--big, broad brush strokes--of "Devil's Trap."
Also, the evil monologuing by YED . . . the thing that caught my attention was YED's acknowledgement that only one thing has the juice to swing that (manipulating time), and Dean's got angels looking over his shoulder . . . confirmation from an outside source that Castiel is, indeed, an angel.
And how creepy is the whole "Are you one of my psychic kids?" sniffing Dean? *shudder*
Demon blood is better than Ovaltine. It'll make Sam big and strong. Um . . . okay, so does that mean that Sam would be psychic regardless? Interesting. And moot.
I love Dean's, "Look into my eyes. I'm the one who kills you." Yes.
Was distressed by the breaking of Deanna's neck. :-(
So. YED goes to nab Mary, and he . . . breaks John's neck. See me startle off the couch and slap a hand over my mouth.
And Mary makes a deal. See the other hand go over my mouth. So *this* is where the family gets their penchant for self-sacrificing deals. Except Mary didn't know what she was sacrificing at the time . . . which is Sam. You know, even with the lack of Sam in the ep, it's still All About Sam.
And how creepy was the YED/Mary lip lock? So very, very squicky on multiple levels.
And we're back in the motel. Dean couldn't stop it; he didn't change anything. At first, Castiel's "all roads lead to the same destination" thing irked me, but put in the context of this series of events, I get what he's saying, and it works. It didn't matter whether Dean was there or not; the outcome was the same.
Which begs the question, why? Why did Castiel have to send Dean back? I figure it's because, at this point, Dean's not gonna believe anything Castiel tells him without major convincing. Easier to show Dean what happened, even have him participate. That makes it real to Dean, because Dean only believes what he can see.
And now Dean is up to speed and knows everything "his side" knows.
And the coup de grâce. Sam has to be stopped (the "you have to stop it" mentioned earlier), and "if you don't do it, we will." I knew--I KNEW--it was going to come down to this. It's the same thing John told Dean in the hospital, only amped up by about 15 bajillion. So Castiel tells Dean where he can find Sam and . . .
"To Be Continued."
You did not hear me scream because once again, my jaw dropped and my hands (yes, plural this time) smacked over my mouth. However, had Geo not been on the phone at the time, and had I not been wanting not to spoil him, oh, yes. Screams aplenty. Again, I had flashbacks to the "To Be Continued" title card at the end of Farscape. (Yes, the FS cancellation has scarred me for life.)
And there you have it. There were some things I really liked about the ep, some things that made me start wondering again what John knew when, and some things that I'm just going to have to assimilate because I don't really like them, but they're part of canon now, and I must deal.
But the promos for next week have me totally stoked. It looks like it could be a tie-in with this week (dude, TBC), or it could be a MotW, which I'm so jonesing for right now.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2008-10-04 08:12 pm (UTC)Dean just needs someone to follow him around and hug him every few minutes, much as Daniel does in the first several season of SG-1.
no subject
Date: 2008-10-05 05:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-10-06 02:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-10-04 11:08 pm (UTC)I don't think Mary did much revealing to John. He wouldn't have needed Missouri if he already knew the truth. And I definitely don't think she relayed her feeling about raising her kids in the life. John was a damn bastard, but I can't see him taking his kids down that road if he knew how strongly Mary felt about it.
Actually seeing this softer side of John has made me feel a little better about him. Losing Mary really broke the core of him. Something the war didn't do. She was his light, and her being taken in that way pretty much turned him into a different person.
The time paradox thing. I agree. No matter if Dean was there or not. All roads lead to the same destination.
no subject
Date: 2008-10-05 05:12 pm (UTC)Well, I didn't really feel anything for the character. It just kind of felt to me like he was there in the script because he was supposed to be there. He felt more like a plot device than an actual character. And part of that, I think, can be blamed on the writer. He represented a young, naive, apple pie John rather than actually *being* a young, naive, apple pie John. I don't know how else to explain it.
Upon re-watch, I'm getting used to this, but I'd kind of have liked to have felt something for or about him. The contrast you mention that 'Nam didn't break him the way Mary's murder did--that's an excellent observation. But they didn't do anything with it. I got no sense that this guy had seen combat and pulled through other than what the writers tell us in Mary's dialogue. I guess it comes down to the "show, don't tell" principle.
And when I say all of that, I realize that this ep, if properly fleshed out, could probably have been a 2-parter. The title card at the end notwithstanding.
I don't think John knew anything before Mary's death, either. Mary wanted to leave it behind. But there's a line in "Home" where John tells Missouri that he "doesn't want to talk to him. Not until I know for sure." Or something like that. Just makes me ponder . . .
no subject
Date: 2008-10-05 11:44 am (UTC)Actually i didn't find here something you were upset about - as i see it you explained it all to yourself very clever.
At this point, I'm feeling a little bit of a re-hash of WIaWSNB. Dean? Honey? You've had to make this decision before--live a happy life or save people, hunt things
I think it was partly the nod to WIaWSNB and partly new side of that - cos actually Dean can't be responsible for everyone - there are other hunters. Plus, we don't know how many people killed YED with all those years he build his plan so maybe Dean's intention to kill YED was right one - there'll be no evil!Sam hence no threat to angels too. Just thinking...
At first, Castiel's "all roads lead to the same destination" thing irked me, but put in the context of this series of events, I get what he's saying
I love those words! Cos even if you don't like involving of scifi in the show those words work great and for the reasons of time paradox and for explaining scifi part. No matter was Dean there or not - the outcome would be the same. But the future doesn't define yet - that's my hope for all of them - Dean can stop Sam not killing him but turning him to good side - that's variation of fatum for me.