OK, i see you see things very differently. or maybe i expect of the show the different thing you excpect. For me Dean's role of just being awesome and nothing else is an insult. It puts him in *female* role of sitting in the corner waiting for the prince to come and save. it's not Dean i knew. See? If it was a life with Dean that helped sam than why he didn't break through when luci almost killed dean with sam's hands? Why his almost alive brother did nothing for sam but some toy he put in Impala did? I just think it was made deliberately to show it wasn't dean himself it was sam who broke through. Maybe made they that scene a little differently i'd see it in more positive light for dean but they did what they did.
If that's the case, then Dean could be eliminated from the entire series, and it would still play out the same way, with just Sam. I can't even begin to outline how much I disagree with that assessment. Hehe, that's exactly how i see Dean's role because taking him out of mytharc wouldn't change a thing. Sam still would argue with John about something (just because they're too similar) and would give in to his dark side and still would be a vessel for luci. In heaven ep we were shown that dean wasn't important for sam so i don't see *his life with dean* as something that could help him. Maybe if they wouldn't changing the course of the season so drastically in the last 3 eps and would address that heaven ep more i'd believe in *his life with dean* but they didn't and felt too far-fetched for me.
The point of that was Dean trusting that Sam was strong enough to do it. Trust involves risk. Yes but the plan was about to damn the world or not. Too much risky i would say and i don't see dean agreeing to that level of risk. Also they had alternative - dean saying tes to Micheal but they were so against it i couldn't believe it. There they at least had a chance for a half of the world to survive but they decided to ignore it and go with more risky plan...
don't even know how to respond to that because it's an incredible over-simplification of the brothers' relationship. Of course Dean has always loved Sam. That's why all the memories of Dean's love. See? The thoing is that dean's role never changed. As Kripke loved to point out dean's only perpose in the zstory is to love sam. Nothing more. It's not a characterization of vivid character it's a describing of a tool. Sam maybe needed that journey to change his view of something (i don't know about what because in the end he was shown as flawless) but dean was ready for the finale of S5 in Pilot. His only role was to love sam and he did love him. Is it simple? Yes. But that's how the show presents it. At least how i see it. All growing on dean's part was unnecessary to this point. He loved sam and he continue to love him. There's no progression.
As for ideal finale i still don't know if dean saying no to micheal was a good thing but i have bigger issues with sam first killing 2 innocnt people to drink their blood only to have his plan busted and needing dean to be almost killed to overcome luci. And can you explain why falling into the pit sam/luci took micheal with him? It wasn't necessary at all. Why sarcifice micheal?
Well, i understand that we see things too differently to find some middle ground but it was nice talking to you. My mind is still boggling at how you see enough for dean to take so inactive role and be ok with it but i think i never understand that. I like Dean as a protagonist and no matter what kripke said he was a protagonist for about 4.5 years. *sigh*
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branchandroot
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Date: 2010-07-29 09:02 pm (UTC)For me Dean's role of just being awesome and nothing else is an insult. It puts him in *female* role of sitting in the corner waiting for the prince to come and save. it's not Dean i knew.
See? If it was a life with Dean that helped sam than why he didn't break through when luci almost killed dean with sam's hands? Why his almost alive brother did nothing for sam but some toy he put in Impala did? I just think it was made deliberately to show it wasn't dean himself it was sam who broke through. Maybe made they that scene a little differently i'd see it in more positive light for dean but they did what they did.
If that's the case, then Dean could be eliminated from the entire series, and it would still play out the same way, with just Sam. I can't even begin to outline how much I disagree with that assessment.
Hehe, that's exactly how i see Dean's role because taking him out of mytharc wouldn't change a thing. Sam still would argue with John about something (just because they're too similar) and would give in to his dark side and still would be a vessel for luci. In heaven ep we were shown that dean wasn't important for sam so i don't see *his life with dean* as something that could help him. Maybe if they wouldn't changing the course of the season so drastically in the last 3 eps and would address that heaven ep more i'd believe in *his life with dean* but they didn't and felt too far-fetched for me.
The point of that was Dean trusting that Sam was strong enough to do it. Trust involves risk.
Yes but the plan was about to damn the world or not. Too much risky i would say and i don't see dean agreeing to that level of risk. Also they had alternative - dean saying tes to Micheal but they were so against it i couldn't believe it. There they at least had a chance for a half of the world to survive but they decided to ignore it and go with more risky plan...
don't even know how to respond to that because it's an incredible over-simplification of the brothers' relationship. Of course Dean has always loved Sam. That's why all the memories of Dean's love.
See? The thoing is that dean's role never changed. As Kripke loved to point out dean's only perpose in the zstory is to love sam. Nothing more. It's not a characterization of vivid character it's a describing of a tool. Sam maybe needed that journey to change his view of something (i don't know about what because in the end he was shown as flawless) but dean was ready for the finale of S5 in Pilot. His only role was to love sam and he did love him. Is it simple? Yes. But that's how the show presents it. At least how i see it. All growing on dean's part was unnecessary to this point. He loved sam and he continue to love him. There's no progression.
As for ideal finale i still don't know if dean saying no to micheal was a good thing but i have bigger issues with sam first killing 2 innocnt people to drink their blood only to have his plan busted and needing dean to be almost killed to overcome luci. And can you explain why falling into the pit sam/luci took micheal with him? It wasn't necessary at all. Why sarcifice micheal?
Well, i understand that we see things too differently to find some middle ground but it was nice talking to you. My mind is still boggling at how you see enough for dean to take so inactive role and be ok with it but i think i never understand that. I like Dean as a protagonist and no matter what kripke said he was a protagonist for about 4.5 years. *sigh*