Upon watching the download

[feliciakw]

Young Sam with yellow eyes was not unexpected but completely disturbing and creepy. (Also, that conversation, particularly Young!Sam's tone, reminded me of a similar scene in Northern Exposure wherein Joel was getting chewed out by his younger self for not manning up and taking responsibility. Only, you know, it wasn't nearly as evil.)

Mom Winchester looked . . . not quite evil, but somehow wrong. Nicely played, Show.

Jared was great.

Jensen was great.

This whole ending was very, very painful.

Sam choking Dean . . . I was hoping that he was only choking Dean out so he could make a clean escape. I don't think that's the case. I think he had every intention of killing Dean, but something in him stopped him before that happened. Of course, Dean passed out just before credits.

I can't think of a way they can fix this and remain true to the show, but otoh, they can't not fix it and remain true to Show. I just . . .

I hurt for Show . . .

Comments

[kimmer1227.livejournal.com]

Young Sam was creepy. Someone over on TWoP was saying it would be fun if he had a showdown with Young Lilith. The battle of the evil!kids.

I'm so impressed with how far Jared has come as an actor. This by far was his best performance. IMO. Kudos, dude.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Re: how far Jared has come.

Oh, total word on that. He's improved by leaps and bounds, and I'm sure at least part of that is due to working with someone as good as Jensen. I would love to ask them how they've influenced each other, both in personal habits and mannerisms, but more interestingly, in who they approach their craft.

[whitemartyr.livejournal.com]

Mom Winchester was played by a different actress. I am pretty sure. Unless they just did a great job with make-up and acting. And that could be.

Yes, I am very sad for both of the boys.

And quite convinced that the 'human twisted by demonic forces' who will break the seal (which Ruby mentioned) is in fact SAM and not Lilith.

AND I am really really hoping there's a very good reason Cas was ordered to let Sam out. And that there's something redeeming to that. I dunno what I will do if they totally just say God is a big meanie once and for all. :(

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Oh, it was the same actress playing (adult) Mary. Samantha Smith. I thought her face looked a little fuller than we're used to, but someone mentioned baby fat, so apparently she's a new mom and is still getting rid of the extra baby pounds.

What I found different, in addition to the baby weight, was her portrayal of Mary. She seemed . . . off . . . from what we've always seen her as. It was Sam's own DTs-induced interpretation of Mary, but I think it was Sam's way of telling himself that what he's doing is right, and Dean will only get in the way.

I dunno what I will do if they totally just say God is a big meanie once and for all. :(

That is something that could put me off Show permanently. Or at least take me down to a level where I'm only watching for Jensen's performance. I know this isn't Sunday school and they're just telling a story here, but it's hard for me not to see their interpretations through my beliefs. "Heaven" doesn't equate with God in the SPN 'verse, and that's hard for me to keep track of because it goes against things I hold so fundamentally dear. You know?

So, yeah. Cas better have a really good reason for doing what he did, and there better be a great payoff all the way around.

*wibble*

[whitemartyr.livejournal.com]

Oh okay, baby weight makes sense. :P Plus yeah her portrayal was disturbing. That whole scene freaked me out. PLUS the one with Sam's hallucination of Dean leaning over and getting all creepy (I think they used a different camera lense for that cos his face seemed off) and leaning in to say he was a monster. *shiver*

Sam totally knows he's a monster by the way. His response to that was so very a response of not wanting to accept truth rather than not thinking he's right. If that makes sense.

"That is something that could put me off Show permanently.
It might make me stop watching too. I hope they fix it.

[gatorpez.livejournal.com]

[i]"That is something that could put me off Show permanently. Or at least take me down to a level where I'm only watching for Jensen's performance. I know this isn't Sunday school and they're just telling a story here, but it's hard for me not to see their interpretations through my beliefs. "Heaven" doesn't equate with God in the SPN 'verse, and that's hard for me to keep track of because it goes against things I hold so fundamentally dear. You know?"[/i]

I don't even know if Jensen could keep me around if the show does this. You're right, this isn't Sunday school, but to make God the big bad in all of this would just not be something I can watch. There's so much bad in the world (both SPN and real world), how can you not have something good to believe in? That's a damn depressing world.

I also have to agree with something else you said - that you don't trust Kripke without others' interference. I think the loss of Kim Manners will be sorely felt in this episode. I also think I miss Raelle Tucker even more now too. If Kripke had been left to his own devices, based on his commentary to [i]What Is...[/i], I don't think it would've been half as good an episode as it was (it's still in my Top 3 SPN eps of the entire series).

We know from the Syndey Con that Jensen had a discussion with Kripke over how Dean would act in a scene in 4.22, and if it's the one scene in one of the clips, I have to go with Jensen's interpretation.

So, yeah, I'm a little anxious about this episode.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Re: Jensen not being able to argue Dean with Kripke . . . while I completely see where Jensen is coming from (there's politics and diplomacy matters involved when you're discussing things with the folks employing you and writing your character), I would say that from a strictly artistic standpoint, Jensen has every right to argue how Dean would or would not react to a given situation. Jensen has been the embodiment of Dean Winchester for four years. He has brought depth and emotion to the character. He's brought more to the character than Kripke probably ever considered possible.

I say this based on the fact that, as I understand it, Sam was always intended to be the main character. Jared (the actor playing Sam) gets top billing. Sam was the role they cast first. Everything was intended to revolve around Sam. Then they cast Jensen as Dean. And what the actor brought to the character gave the character so much depth and nuance and layers upon layers of character, and the show evolved into being about Sam through Dean's eyes. Sam is still (theoretically) the central character, but we start getting Dean's development through Dean, and Sam's development through Dean. Does that make sense? So I completely understand why the Sam girls rejoice when we get Sam's development through Sam's eyes (ala his detox in "Levee").

And while, yes, it's Jensen's job to tell the story the writers want to tell, there's more to it than that. The writers' story is being filtered through Jensen as an actor, and while each of the writers work on specific scripts, Jensen has to act all of them out. So from a performance standpoint, I'd almost make the argument that Jensen actually knows Dean better than Kripke does at this point. But that might be overstepping bounds.

Of course I have no idea the nature of their discussion, and I've not seen any scenes from next week's ep (other than the promo trailer). So I really can't say who I think would know better. But just from an acting/performance/bring the character to life POV, I'm inclined to say that Jensen knows what he's talking about. Trust him.

As for Kripke needing a team to bring out the best . . . total word on that score. What I know of Kripke's first drafts and intentions, I'm . . . not as impressed as much of the fandom seems to be with him. That's not to say that he's a slouch, because choosing a good team takes a skill and intelligence of its own. But I'm not quite as enamored of him as much of the fandom is. He needs a team to rein him in and provide a reality check. FYI, Kripke? Your actors are part of that team.

That's part of the danger, I guess, of creating "living" characters. "Living" characters grow, and not always in the direction you intend. That's part of what makes it exciting, I think.

[izhilzha.livejournal.com]

As Fee said, that was definitely Samantha Smith, but they did do something to make her look different (and the performance was intriguingly altered as well).

And quite convinced that the 'human twisted by demonic forces' who will break the seal (which Ruby mentioned) is in fact SAM and not Lilith.

I'm seeing this idea a lot right now. It's reasonable, but it's making me cringe on Sam's behalf. *clings to semi-demonic Sam*

I dunno what I will do if they totally just say God is a big meanie once and for all. :(

I would probably stop watching. That's where I was headed after "Heaven and Hell." *hopes for the best*

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

And quite convinced that the 'human twisted by demonic forces' who will break the seal (which Ruby mentioned) is in fact SAM and not Lilith.

This . . . could be problematic from a continuity standpoint. It would seem to imply that Ruby has been lying all along (big shocker) about some demons being former humans. I was adamant against that when it was first brought up, but there was actually independent confirmation within Show that that's how this mythos works. Tammy referenced Ruby's days as a witch (i.e., human) when they had no reason to be playacting for anyone. So to make Sam be the first human twisted into a demon by demonic forces would . . . be problematic from that standpoint.

However, I'm also well aware that writers often like to play fast and loose with continuity. And there might be other ways in which Sam fits the bill, like the first living soul to be twisted into a demon. But yes, I'm completely convinced that Sam and Lilith, and Sam's killing Lilith, somehow fits into the final seal thing.

*nods*

*weeps*

[kimmer1227.livejournal.com]

But what if the real Ruby didn't come back from hell. Dean can't see her true face anymore. The only thing that really throws that off is Alastair torturing her. I suppose they could be playing for different teams.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

What I mean is, if the seal has to be broken by the first human that was twisted by demonic forces, and that first human twisted by demonic forces turns out to be Sam, that negates what Ruby said about all the demons she's met being former human. It means that all demons are demons up until Sam, which contradicts what Tammy and Ruby were talking about when Tammy had Ruby down and was giving the big reveal.

Otoh, if Sam somehow fits the bill in another way, then we're good to go without a continuity issue.

Of course, my brain hurts, and the ep is making my thinking muddled, so there is that.

[kimmer1227.livejournal.com]

I think all this "breaking seals" business is a timing issue. Unless that first seal is broken, it doesn't matter about the rest. And maybe for the 66th, the human has to be alive. I have more issue with the first seal. I can't believe in all the time deals have been made, that a righteous man hasn't broken. But then you get into what exactly is righteous. I try not to think about the mythology stuff too much or my brain will splode.

[leelust.livejournal.com]

He def wanted to kill Dean. And when he stopped he didn't look terrified of what he just done.
But they fix it and i'm scared because after direct cuts for the finale it looks like they again will choose not realistic and stupid way to do it. Sometimes i think i almost done with this show :(

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

I . . . don't think anything is going to get fixed this season. (You're spoiled, of course, so I don't know what you know. And I don't want to know. Heh.)

It seems there are a lot of ways this could go, all of which will make some of us want to quit the show. It'll be interesting to see how this pans out.

And by "interesting" I mean "excruciatingly painful with copious angst and tears."