Actually, yeah, I believe what we were told about John in this ep. Partly because I've been saying for months that it would kill Dean to realize that he broke when his father didn't. And I believe the scenario as it was presented to us in AHBL2: John fought his way out of the gate, allowed for Dean to kill YED, said good-bye to his boys, and disappeared in sparkly white light. Unless they do some major ret-conning, I'm gonna go with my original interpretation.
You make a good point with CRB, and if they bring that up and go there, I'm game. But I really don't think the writers are going to do that (heck, they can't even remember that Castiel has already expressed doubt prior to this ep--which was less than a season ago). The first time I saw CRB, I completely. Freaked. Out. That Dean would even consider such a deal? Terrifying. That he would take a demon at its word that the John he would get back was his father? Horrifying. There would have been all sorts of strings attached, and I would not expect the John that was returned to be John as the Boys knew him, even if the demon said he would be.
I was in a complete panic (just ask Izhi *g*) that Dean would even go there.
I do agree with you, though, that Alistair was torturing Dean just as much as the other way around. Absolutely. And even if he was lying, the best lies hold partial truths. Good riddance to him.
So yep, I believe what we were told about John. But if it later comes about that something else went down, I'm okay with that, too.
Part of the reason I missed out on Jensen's performance was that I was distracted by the color correction as it appeared on our TV, which really accentuated the tired eye make-up. I sat there kinda thinking, "Wow. They went a little heavy on the eye shadow, didn't they? And there's the smudged liner again." I guess that's one of the hazards of being too interested in costuming and make-up as well as acting.
Plus, you know. Jensen rocks. It's pretty much a given. *g*
But how could John fight his way out of the gate if he was on the rack? If he was being tortured and they were trying to break him, he wasn't walking around, he was chained(and remember what Dean's chains were like in Hell's Waiting Room, I'd imagine they are much worse once you get down into Hell Proper). I don't believe John could have escaped if he'd truly been in Dean's position all those years.
So the only thing I believe Alastair about with regards to John is that he was down there, Alastair probably did torture him at some point and that John did not break the seal. I don't believe that John was tortured as completely as Dean was and I don't believe John ever could have broken the seal because I don't think he was a righteous man.
Honestly? I don't think the writers have taken John too much into consideration. Because if he broke? He was on his way to being a demon. And if he was on his way to being a demon, and not rescued like Dean was, how did he leave in the shiny light, thus implying Heaven?
Also, with the undoubted uproar in Hell over a gate being opened and demons doing their best to escape, anything could happen. There is fic to be had, no doubt.
At the point in time when John escaped Hell, I don't think the writers had thought as far ahead as we've gotten. I don't think they had any concept of how they were going to depict Hell. They didn't know that Dean was going to be on a rack. Neither do we know whether or not all souls end up on a rack, or whether or not all souls end up on a rack all the time.
I could be wrong, and if they tell me otherwise, I'll go with the story they tell. But right now, I don't see how a demon in training could have "gone into the light."
I honestly don't think, at this point, John's story matters one way or the other. What does matter is that Dean believes he fell short of his father's expectations, and that Dean was the one who broke the seal.
Actually, upon further reflection, I think for Dean's sake I'd like it if we learn precisely what happened with John. But honestly? I don't think the writers are going to give us the satisfaction.
I don't believe that John was tortured as completely as Dean was and I don't believe John ever could have broken the seal because I don't think he was a righteous man.
Wow, I really disagree with you. If only because, honestly? Show is clearly using a less stringent idea of "righteous," here; Dean himself is a liar, a conman, a womanizer.
Now, clearly part of our disagreement here comes from the fact that you seem to consider John a bad man and a bad father. He made some mistakes (as all fathers do), but I consider him overall a decent man and a father who did a great job considering the circumstances they were forced into.
If the angels can call Dean righteous, I see no reason why that shouldn't be applied to John as well.
Also, re: John escaping from hell: I figure hell was thrown into an uproar when the devil's gate was opened. All kinds of demons got out, including the Seven who hadn't been topside for centuries; I think it's entirely possible that John got free in the uproar, or, perhaps, was set free by some rival of Yellow Eyes (Alistair himself, maybe, if he hadn't been able to break him by then?).
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branchandroot
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Date: 2009-03-20 05:41 pm (UTC)You make a good point with CRB, and if they bring that up and go there, I'm game. But I really don't think the writers are going to do that (heck, they can't even remember that Castiel has already expressed doubt prior to this ep--which was less than a season ago). The first time I saw CRB, I completely. Freaked. Out. That Dean would even consider such a deal? Terrifying. That he would take a demon at its word that the John he would get back was his father? Horrifying. There would have been all sorts of strings attached, and I would not expect the John that was returned to be John as the Boys knew him, even if the demon said he would be.
I was in a complete panic (just ask Izhi *g*) that Dean would even go there.
I do agree with you, though, that Alistair was torturing Dean just as much as the other way around. Absolutely. And even if he was lying, the best lies hold partial truths. Good riddance to him.
So yep, I believe what we were told about John. But if it later comes about that something else went down, I'm okay with that, too.
Part of the reason I missed out on Jensen's performance was that I was distracted by the color correction as it appeared on our TV, which really accentuated the tired eye make-up. I sat there kinda thinking, "Wow. They went a little heavy on the eye shadow, didn't they? And there's the smudged liner again." I guess that's one of the hazards of being too interested in costuming and make-up as well as acting.
Plus, you know. Jensen rocks. It's pretty much a given. *g*
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Date: 2009-03-20 08:11 pm (UTC)So the only thing I believe Alastair about with regards to John is that he was down there, Alastair probably did torture him at some point and that John did not break the seal. I don't believe that John was tortured as completely as Dean was and I don't believe John ever could have broken the seal because I don't think he was a righteous man.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-20 10:09 pm (UTC)Also, with the undoubted uproar in Hell over a gate being opened and demons doing their best to escape, anything could happen. There is fic to be had, no doubt.
At the point in time when John escaped Hell, I don't think the writers had thought as far ahead as we've gotten. I don't think they had any concept of how they were going to depict Hell. They didn't know that Dean was going to be on a rack. Neither do we know whether or not all souls end up on a rack, or whether or not all souls end up on a rack all the time.
I could be wrong, and if they tell me otherwise, I'll go with the story they tell. But right now, I don't see how a demon in training could have "gone into the light."
I honestly don't think, at this point, John's story matters one way or the other. What does matter is that Dean believes he fell short of his father's expectations, and that Dean was the one who broke the seal.
Actually, upon further reflection, I think for Dean's sake I'd like it if we learn precisely what happened with John. But honestly? I don't think the writers are going to give us the satisfaction.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-21 06:32 am (UTC)Wow, I really disagree with you. If only because, honestly? Show is clearly using a less stringent idea of "righteous," here; Dean himself is a liar, a conman, a womanizer.
Now, clearly part of our disagreement here comes from the fact that you seem to consider John a bad man and a bad father. He made some mistakes (as all fathers do), but I consider him overall a decent man and a father who did a great job considering the circumstances they were forced into.
If the angels can call Dean righteous, I see no reason why that shouldn't be applied to John as well.
Also, re: John escaping from hell: I figure hell was thrown into an uproar when the devil's gate was opened. All kinds of demons got out, including the Seven who hadn't been topside for centuries; I think it's entirely possible that John got free in the uproar, or, perhaps, was set free by some rival of Yellow Eyes (Alistair himself, maybe, if he hadn't been able to break him by then?).
Speculating is fun. *g*