feliciakw: (SPN - LR (4.01))
[personal profile] feliciakw
Well, okay. It's taken me some time to assimilate this ep, and there's a lot to be said that I just don't have the energy to say right now. This ep has already led to some major disagreements in the fandom (from what little I've observed), and my Dean-girl colors are showing because I mostly am totally down with his view of things . . . but not completely.

I wasn't real impressed with this ep the first time through, but a lot of it was not the ep's fault. Here, in a nutshell:



Upon first viewing, I really wasn't feeling the squee. There are, I believe, a number of reasons for this:

1) The viewing experience really does affect how much I enjoy an episode. This one suffered for lack of widescreen broadcast and our crummy TV color balance. The contrast is poor, and the darks have no depth. Which is a huge problem for a show that is so darkly lit and plays with the color correction on a regular basis anyway. I've told George I want a new TV this week, particularly since next week's ep is B&W. (Can't do anything about the lack of widescreen broadcast or the friggin' CW pop-ups, which I loathe with a white hot passion.)

2) I was, for some reason, disappointed in the MotW aspect of the ep. I don't think I could tell you why, but I think it goes back the the poor color quality. I was distracted by how pasty and washed out everything looked.

3) The humor, unfortunately, felt a little off to me. Again, I can't explain why, other than I was inwardly complaining about missing parts of the picture and Dean's lips being blue.

4) Ruby.

5) Ruby.

6) And did I mention Ruby? Seriously, dude. I miss Katie Cassidy so much. This chick well and truly drives me up a wall with her portrayal and delivery, and if they do indeed start trying to turn her sweet, I'm gonna be vastly, VASTLY disappointed.

What I did like about the ep:

1) Secrets. Comin' out all over the place. Dean knows about Sam's powers, and Sam let it slip about what YED showed him. Oh, oh, oh!

2) Sammy. We finally get to hear a bit of what Sammy has been going through, and we get a hint (though I want more) of what those four months were like for him. Sam couldn't take Dean's death any better than Dean could take Sam's death. Of course, Dean probably should have figured that out, given that back in "Faith," Sam seemed fairly willing to look the other way when someone else died so that Dean could live. Oh, Boys.

3) Dean's packing to leave. "You don't need me." It's always Sam who does the leaving. Now the shoe's on the other foot, Sammy boy. Not so easy to watch your brother pack and take off intentionally, is it?

4) Basically, all the brother stuff.

5) "God doesn't want you to do this!" Oh, squee! So, Dean, does that mean you've come around finally? Or are you just using that as leverage against your believing-but-still-hanging-out-with-a-demon brother?

6) Dean's glee at being able to add a new word to his vocabulary. It felt a little forced at times, but even forced, Jensen was able to sell it to me.

I'm not sure how I feel about this all feeling like a repeat of "Nightmare." Same thesis statements as S2, only amped way, way up.




So, let's get thinky. Well, as thinky as I get.

Where to start?

Dean. I am totally on board with Dean regarding Sam's demon-granted powers. It's a slippery slope, as I've already said. Not only that, but "a house divided against itself cannot stand." Sam's powers are demon-given. Ain't no way a demon--any demon--is gonna show him how to use these powers for the betterment of mankind. Also? A Latin exorcism seems so much more effective to me. Speak the Latin, the demon is banished. With what Sam is doing, the demon kinda gets coughed out . . . and how do we know that there isn't some sort of residual left in the person who survives?

I understand Sam's wanting to make something good come out of his curse. I applaud the intention. But it's gonna be bad, bad news. And while I was a bit thrown by the punches Dean took at Sam, I understand Dean's anger, his need to wake Sam up, and I completely agree with Dean in pointing out that apparently God doesn't want Sam using these powers. That's a shocker for Sam, but when God doesn't want us doing something, it's ultimately for our own good. (Yes, that's my personal beliefs making their way in there, but I am who I am.)

When it comes to his fraternizing (hopefully not like that) with Ruby, Sam would totally benefit from remembering the fable of the frog and the scorpion, or paying attention to the moral of the song The Snake. Because using his demon powers? Cannot end well.

I've also seen much ado made about the "If I didn't know you, I'd want to hunt you. And so would other hunters." Again, I can see where Dean's coming from. Sam already has a rep in the hunting community of being the anti-christ, at least among Gordon's network. When word gets out that he can control demons? Yeah, that's not gonna bode well. Add to that the whole Steve Wandell incident, and the information is not falling in Sam's favor. The point that I bring away from that is that it doesn't matter what Sam's intentions are; what will matter to those on the outside is what Sam does--namely, control demons, while keeping company with one.

It about broke my heart when Sam let it slip and Dean realized that Sam had been keeping the secret of the YED blood thing for a year. What must Dean be feeling, to have things like that hidden from him? His, "Fine. Whatever" about did me in. With Sam's reply of "Whatever" just being the cherry on top. Otoh, Dean, dude. Cut Sammy some slack. He found out about it A) from YED, and you yourself will be the first to state that demons lie; B) he found out about this the day before he died, which was C) the day before you sold your soul. Sam kinda had other things on his mind last year, ya know?

But still, I've been impressed with how readily Dean has shared information with Sam. Sammy, you're still solidly in the truth deficit column. And you're crushing Dean's trust, dude. Are you sure you want to do that?

Now, regarding the actual hunt/MotW . . . I'm gonna go with Sam on this one. Give Jack a chance before you just torch him. And apparently, Dean is willing to back Sammy up on that one, always jumping to Sam's defense, letting them talk to Jack first, etc. Dean even put it into terms the average person can understand--like being an alcoholic swimming in whiskey. (Kinda reminds me of gambling addict Warrick Brown on CSI and his comment about what it was like to work cases at the casinos. Very, very difficult.)

And I will say that the guy who played Jack, I thought, did a really, really good job.

(And, hey, wasn't that bartender in "Sin City"?)

But a lot of this ep felt like . . . maybe not re-treads, but definitely repeats in some way to "Nightmare" and "Bloodlust." Sam locked in a closet while Dean is in mortal peril as Sam tries to talk down the MotW. A supernatural creature who consumes humans, except they can survive if they don't. Vegetarian vampires, boys. Remember them? It can be done.

And I've already said that the whole theme of "Save Sammy" was going to be the theme of the season, only amped up by about a bajillion.

Now, back to the demon-powers issues. Dean apologizing to Sam about being hard on him. Seems Dean does that quite frequently, whether it be the powers or about a case.

Also, if I were a betting woman, I'd almost take it to Vegas that they are going to do an addiction storyline. They made a pretty big point of saying that when Sam uses his not-so-secret-anymore powers, his headaches are completely gone. He stops using the powers? Headaches return. He tells Ruby to take a hike (per his "I'm done with all of it"), well, the little pusher isn't going to take that lying down. She's gonna have to find a way to reel him back in. Otherwise her evil ulterior plan is shot. And Dean's gonna have to hold an intervention (which he's kinda already tried to do with the punches, but there's got to be a better way than that, ya know?).

But to end on a more positive note, the humor in this ep holds up better on re-watch. I was quite tickled when Dean called Castiel "Cas," like being on a first name basis or something.

Loved the "We're here to save you, I guess," scene. The expressions on their faces were hilarious.

Dean's word of the day. And he used it in context!

And I'm quite certain this is the ep containing the practical joke Jared talks about at his most recent con. If those out-takes are not in the gag reel for S4, I'm going to be sorely disappointed.


Overall, I think this one has a lot to recommend it, even if it did fall a bit short in some areas for me.

Date: 2008-10-11 09:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] izhilzha.livejournal.com
We went over a lot of this yesterday, and you know I'm in agreement with you on the potential addiction storyline. Just one quibble:

They made a pretty big point of saying that when Sam uses his not-so-secret-anymore powers, his headaches are completely gone. He stops using the powers? Headaches return.

When did they say that he gets headaches if he *doesn't* use his powers? My impression from that bit of dialogue was that it used to hurt Sam to control demons, but now that he's used to it, it doesn't hurt to do anymore. (As if, maybe, he'd pursued his vision powers a couple seasons back, maybe they would have stopped hurting as he accepted them and used them.)

My $0.02. :-)

Date: 2008-10-11 09:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] feliciakw.livejournal.com
That's how I took it--he used to get headaches when he had his visions. He wasn't "using" his powers; they were just sort of happening and he had no control over them. He wasn't consciously using them. Now that he actually uses them, no more headaches. I assumed that they were referring to the visions-induced headaches of yore.

But I see what you're saying--that now that he's had practice with the powers, his headaches are gone. Like becoming accustomed to smoking, for example. As you get used to the smoke in your lungs, you don't cough as much when smoking.

Just our different interpretations as to what headaches they're talking about.

Date: 2008-10-11 10:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] izhilzha.livejournal.com
I think I went for the explanation that linked the headaches strictly to the powers he's using now because Sam himself was pretty clear that he had no visions (and no attendant headaches) after the death of Yellow Eyes. So I figured these were new headaches, related to the new use of his powers.

I'll be interested to see how much more detail we get on this from canon!

Date: 2008-10-12 12:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] just-ruth.livejournal.com
I'm afraid I disagree - this episodes sole purpose was to beat Sam down and destroy whatever self-esteem he might have scraped together for himself.

I see this as driving him even farther down that slope - if no one thinks he's saved - why try to save himself? He's damned - might as well enjoy the drop as Bela said.

Date: 2008-10-12 12:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] izhilzha.livejournal.com
Dean doesn't think Sam's not worth saving...that was the whole point of him trying to get Sam to talk to him, to tell him the truth. He wants to save his brother.

I do agree that Sam took some blows here...but of the tough-love type. Self-esteem, if based on the wrong things (doing something good but in a way that will eventually destroy you, for example, can lead to toxic co-dependency--even when there aren't any demons involved!), isn't necessarily a good thing in and of itself.

Sam's desperation to save people by learning to use his demon powers makes total sense to me: he promised Dean he would save him, and he couldn't. So he's doing what he feels he can, dangerous to himself or not.

Very similar to Dean going to the crossroads demon and selling his soul in AHBL. He'd failed to keep Sam safe; what else was he to do?

Imho, this episode was about Sam trying to justify his actions to Dean, and about Dean trying to get Sam to see what a dangerous path he's on. A very sloppy sort of intervention, if you like.

Date: 2008-10-12 12:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] just-ruth.livejournal.com
Very sloppy indeed! I don't have Itunes so I'm only running on the first dismaying viewing.

Date: 2008-10-12 11:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] leelust.livejournal.com
OK, again very interesting observation (in this season i think there are the most interesting discussion about every ep).

Sam's powers are demon-given
That's my point in every talk - he stop seeing this point.

how do we know that there isn't some sort of residual left in the person who survives?
And that was what bothered me too - Sam said he sent demons to hell but HOW did he know that? RS (Ruby said) again?

That's a shocker for Sam, but when God doesn't want us doing something
See? That was a shocker for Sam like he never thought about that before! But he said he's believer and he didn't see anything wrong with listen to demon! And didn't see the darkness of the road he's striding. I think it was his power influenced him and Ruby whispered him...

If I didn't know you, I'd want to hunt you
I think it was the first time Dean looked at Sam differently and maybe saw the monster instead of his brother... it was scary.

With Sam's reply of "Whatever" just being the cherry on top. Otoh, Dean, dude. Cut Sammy some slack
It was powerful scene but i think i saw it with different angle - Sam's Whatever was hurtful for Dean and for my ears cos Sam just admitted he kept so important secret from Dean, admitted he doesn't trust Dean and instead of explanation he just said Whatever? Like Dean doesn't deserve a try? I was so pissed...

But a lot of this ep felt like . . . maybe not re-treads, but definitely repeats in some way to "Nightmare" and "Bloodlust." Sam locked in a closet while Dean is in mortal peril as Sam tries to talk down the MotW. A supernatural creature who consumes humans, except they can survive if they don't.
Again i saw it in different angle here. I saw the resemblance with Nightmare abd Bloodlust but for me it was made on purpose cos it lighting other aspects in 404 - Sam locked in the closet was using his power in the first time to save Dean and now he didn't use anything special to save Dean but on the other hand the story of Jake was straight reminding for Sam that even if you chose to be good you can't be in control all the time cos circumstances can take over you - like Jake chose not to be a monster but Travis made him one - Jake was doing good thing by saving his wife but the result?.. yeah...

Also i really doubt that Sam was sincere telling he's quit using his power. It already corrupted him and there's Ruby... i really doubt in Sam's intentions now...

Date: 2008-10-12 07:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] feliciakw.livejournal.com
I think it was the first time Dean looked at Sam differently and maybe saw the monster instead of his brother... it was scary.

An excellent point. We know that Dean has been freaked out by Sam's powers (visions) since the time they started showing up. And now to actually see Sam use mind powers to command demons. That's got him well and truly wigged out.

Sam's Whatever was hurtful for Dean

Yes, it was. And that's why that whole exchange just about broke my heart.

Also i really doubt that Sam was sincere telling he's quit using his power. It already corrupted him and there's Ruby... i really doubt in Sam's intentions now...

At this point, I don't doubt his intentions, but I do doubt his ability to follow through. I think they might treat it as an addiction, a behavior he can't give up. [livejournal.com profile] izhilzha made the comment that his "I'm done with everything" sounds a lot like what addicts who don't want to admit they're addicts say--"I can give it up whenever I want."

But I could easily be proven wrong, given how Sam lies so easily to Dean now.

Date: 2008-10-13 10:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] leelust.livejournal.com
Thanx :)

We know that Dean has been freaked out by Sam's powers
Yeah, but who wouldn't? Dean held it together and was there for his brother anyway - it's more than usual people can do (i for example think i'd ran away the minute i discover something like thisin person i know but i'm weak).

And that's why that whole exchange just about broke my heart.
Yeah, mine too! But i like the way they write dialogues now - not the obvious (like Sam wold start to apologies) but double-meaning Whatever...

I don't doubt his intentions, but I do doubt his ability to follow through
I agree i used the wrong word - i believe that he believes that he can quit any minute but (and i saw her comment) i agree with izhilzha that it's more like addict's words - and in the motel scene in the beginning of this ep Sam said something along this line - i can stop it whenever i want. - Truly addict's words too.

given how Sam lies so easily to Dean now.
Yep, cos it's addict's words too - they lie so easy and it never bother them.

Do you know the snake wine

Date: 2008-10-12 11:46 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Hi,

Do you know the snake wine? Because I found your website after looking for that on google, so I'm thinking that maybe you have a post about this beverage on your website, but I can't find it.

http://www.asiansnakewine.com/

Thanks for help.

Re: Do you know the snake wine

Date: 2008-10-12 07:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] feliciakw.livejournal.com
Hi,

No, I've never heard of snake wine or scorpion wine before. I imagine this entry showed up in your search because of my mention of the frog and the scorpion fable and the song "The Snake."

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

Date: 2008-10-12 09:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kimmer1227.livejournal.com
The more I think about Sam and this episode, the more he annoys me. I just wish Dean had got to Walk Out The Damn Door! And not feel bad or apologize for it. I know he won't, and that's why I love him so much, but I just wanna shove him out the door. When has Dean ever turned his back on Sam. He may give him shit, but he's always stood by his side. Or even better, stood in front of him to take his bullets. "Your dying wish" my ass! Sam will continue to rationalize his actions and his lies, and never fully take responsibility for them.

I love Sammy, and he'll probably break my frickin' heart in the next few weeks, but he truly pisses me the hell off sometimes. Ditto to his brother. Oh, boys.

I feel better now. :D

Date: 2008-10-13 10:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] feliciakw.livejournal.com
For some reason, Dean's POV is my default setting. I always tend to see things from his eyes first.

I'm not really angry or annoyed with Sam in this ep, but it does take me a re-watch or two, and a conscious effort to put myself in his POV to see things from that angle. Having done that, I understand where he's coming from--he's got this . . . whatever . . . in his blood, pumping through his veins, his entire life, and there's nothing he can do about it. For someone who longs so badly to be "normal," it's even more of a burden. So he does what he can to make the best of the situation.

And I don't think he intentionally broke his promise to Dean . . . I mean, obviously he knew what he was doing when he hooked up (not like that) with Ruby, but I think he probably struggled for quite a bit--during all of his efforts to get Dean back--before he cracked. Still doesn't excuse him lying to Dean, and it doesn't make it any less dangerous, obviously. Slippery slope, won't end well. But Sam is blind to stuff like that.

Sam will continue to rationalize his actions and his lies, and never fully take responsibility for them.

Oh, absolutely. That's where I think the addiction storyline will come into play. He says he's done with it, but the first time they run across a possessed person (which, in this show, will happen sooner rather than later), he won't be able to help himself.

And yeah, there have been plenty of times when Sam has well and truly ticked me off--like every friggin' time he's left, or made his intention to leave well-known. One of the things I find very real about the character is that he'll sacrifice the big things for Dean ("You're my brother, and I'd die for you"), but when it comes to the less dire requests (like Dean's plea that they lay low while he tries to figure out the immunity to demon virus), Sam has no time for it (sneaks out in the night without so much as a note). You know?

I feel better now. :D

Good. :-)
Edited Date: 2008-10-13 11:00 am (UTC)

Date: 2008-10-13 02:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kimmer1227.livejournal.com
Yeah, I'm a big ol' Deangirl, but I try to do the same as you, and see things thru Sam's POV. For me, it's pretty murky in Sam's head. I blame most of that on Show, cos' they haven't given us much Sam stuff to dig in to. I think around mid S1, Show realized how much fun Jensen was to play with, and how damn good he is, and they give him the meatier stuff. Just my opinion.

The addiction angle could be interesting. My fear is Sam will have to use his powers to save Dean, and then it'll be Dean's fault, again. I agree, he's trying to make something good come out of the bad situation with the demon blood. Poor, guy. *pets Sammy*

I wish Sam hadn't shut down at the end of the episode, but I realize Show can't give us too much Sam just yet. They gotta save something for later on. I feel a real tearjerker coming on if/when more comes out about his summer vacation with Ruby. I look forward to seeing broken Sammy, and know Jared will do a good job. At least I hope Show goes there. It's too juicy for them not to.

Date: 2008-10-13 04:46 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kalquessa.livejournal.com
Alas for fandom controversy. *hides from it*

Having seen the "headaches" scene again, I'm sort of on the fence as to the correct interpretation of that comment. It could mean a few different things, though I'm inclined toward "doing this used to hurt, and now it doesn't," which would indicate that Sam's becoming acclimatized to using his powers. But then Sam seems to be getting a headache toward the end of the big "God says to stop" argument, and they make kind of a show about it, as if they want us to notice this. He's pinching the bridge of his nose and grimacing and everything. So I'm not sure what we're supposed to get out of all that. But I am on board for an addiction storyline! Especially if it involves withdrawal H/C! *waves the h/c pom poms*

Date: 2008-10-13 08:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] feliciakw.livejournal.com
Agreed to all of this. I can easily see where the headache thing would refer to something in connection with the mental exorcisms (and I'm sorry, but all I can think of during the "With your mind!" like is River Tam's "I can kill you with my brain." Heh), so I'm perfectly willing to concede that point should it show up in canon. However, neither would I be surprised that now that he's proficient enough that he doesn't get headaches, that they would come back if he stops using his powers.

And yes, I totally agree that we were supposed to recognize the nose-pinching as his reaction to a headache. Absolutely.

Is it Thursday yet? They totally need to air more than one episode a week.

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