Are You There, God? It's Me, Dean Winchester

[feliciakw]

So. Tomorrow is Thursday (Woo and Hoo!) and I've yet to fully compose my squee from last week. I've sort of squeed all over everyone else's LJs, and so I've lost focus. Let's see if I can get it back.

My initial reactions went something like this:

So. Much. Squee. I don't even know where to begin . . . Dean. And Dean. And Dean. And oh, yes, Dean.

And Sam.

And Bobby.

And Bobby's panic room.

And Meg calling Sam on working with Ruby. Because, dude, totally.

And Castiel.

However, it's time to get specific . . .

Internal monologue during teaser: Oh, I didn't know they were introducing three female characters this year. And she's a hunter, could be interesting. Oh, wait. It's the teaser, isn't it. You're a goner, honey. Nice to have met you.

I was completely wrong and am rather delighted that Dean tells Sam about Castiel almost immediately, apparently. *glee* Dean, you're still way behind Sam in the withholding information department.

How much do I love Dean and Sam's argument? So very, very much. Dean reminds me of Moses in this sequence, totally freaked to be the one chosen. Freaked out to be the first hunter to see an angel in, well, ever. A little like that whole "Lead My people out of Egypt" thing with the burning bush (though their responses were quite different). And Sam? Thank you for pointing out that Dean is exactly what Dean is asking about. Hunter who's seen an angel? Yeah, Dean. You're it.

Dean believes that the people he saves will balance out his crimes and womanizing, but he's completely freaked that God would take an interest in him personally. "Why me?" That's just so very human. It sort of reminds me of Moses trying to get God to pass the job off to someone else. And "Why would God give a crap about me?" Oh, Dean. I'll quote Castiel early here: Read the Bible.

I also love Sam's attitude here, willing to accept it, glad that it's one of the good guys doing the rescuing. And when he tells Dean to strap on his party hat! Oh, Sam, I know I give every indication of being a Dean girl, but you . . . can I smish you for just a moment? Then I'll go back to hugging the stuffings out of Dean and slapping you upside the head for consorting (hopefully not like that) with Ruby.

Bobby for the snarky win!

Also, the entire on-going pie exchange made me LOL. "You're gonna get me some pie!" "Dude, when have I ever forgotten the pie?" "Dude, where's the pie?"

Is it okay if I hope that this is indeed the last we see of Ruby? She annoys me.

Dean! Sleeping in the car! Um . . . "Route 666?" Was that the last time we see Dean sleeping in the car? No. Wait. "Provenance." With Sam honking the horn and Dean flailing awake. Though what with Dean's head leaning out the window here, I'm thinking someone else needs to be re-nicknamed "puppy."

Henrickson, I miss you. What a waste of a great character.

Ooohhh . . . ball bouncing down the stairs . . . a nod to The Changeling.

Ooohhh . . . creepy twin girls . . . . a nod to The Shining.

"Come out, come out, whoever you are." It took me forever to figure out where I've heard that rhythm and intonation on that line before. Then it clicked, Robert De Niro in the remake of Cape Fear. I've not seen it, but I definitely remember that from the promos. Dean, you walking encyclopedia of pop culture.

Meg! I loved that she looked so different from when we saw her possessed. And her backstory . . . yeah, that'll kill Dean inside.

People have wondered why the Creepy Twins didn't just kill Bobby outright. I thought it was pretty obvious. He walked past them, didn't find them when the monster was eating them, when they knew help was right outside. They wanted him to feel the same fear, hearing Sam outside looking for him, but unable to do anything to keep the Creepy Twins from killing him.

I expected Dean to add a "bitch" after "iron" when he shot the chandelier. I'm thinking he did not because he knows that *Meg*--girl!Meg--was not a bitch. Usually he has no problems with calling vengeful spirits names, but in this case, he apparently feels she's somewhat justified in her vengefulness. Oh, Dean.

Bobby's panic room! Complete with Bo Derrick poster! Hee!

And Dean verbalizes what most of the fandom has said for close to three seasons . . . Bobby, you're awesome!

Dean's complaints about God . . . "Why doesn't He do something?" Dean, honey? Sweetie? He does. He puts you and Sam and Bobby in a position to save people. God's "mysterious ways" aren't always miraculous. Sometimes coincidence isn't really coincidence at all. *hugs Dean more*

Re: the Witnesses . . . Okay, at this point I'm a little twigged out with what they're doing with the Witnesses passages. I'll have to re-read Revelation, but yeah. It twigs me out. Although, I will say that it fits with the overall storyline in this ep, and it got us some cool guest stars, so I'm still willing to roll with it for now.

Pet peeve: It's "Revelation," singular. Not the commonly mistaken "Revelations," plural. The book is one on-going revelation to the Apostle John during his exile to Patmos. It only takes a quick check at the end of a Bible to look this up, Writers. But . . . it is a very common mistake, and one that only irks me personally, apparently. Not something to get riled about. I just wanted to mention it.

I can also let it slide since this is SPN and they're apparently working from a different text (see 66 Seals, below). But while letting it slide, it also twigs me.

"What, you thought our luck was gonna start now all of a sudden?" Oh, Bobby. You teach snark professionally, don't you.

Ronald! I miss you, Ronald. I totally wanted you to go into Research and IT in the hunting community. I was going to arrange a play date for you and Ash, so he could show you the ropes. Alas, it was not meant to be.

And just for the record, Ronald? Dean told you to stay out of the light. If you'd listened to Dean, you wouldn't have gotten shot.

Bobby: "If you're gonna shoot, shoot. Don't talk." Oh, how many times have I said that to various TV characters over the years? Bobby, just so you know. They never listen.

LOVE that Meg called Sam out on his consorting (hopefully not like that) with Ruby. Dude, totally. Actually, Sam? Since you yourself were possessed once, you should totally be able to relate with Meg on that one. What gives?

Btw, did I mention that I love the stained glass window in the upstairs hallway? Also, Dean's scene in the hallway reminded me of DaLDoM. Makes me wonder if they used the same set.

This makes, what, coronary failure #4 for Dean? "Faith," IMToD, "Fulsom Prison Blues," and now this. Izhi says it's because Dean is all heart. Aw, Izh. I think you nailed it there.

If it weren't for all the hunting, I'm wondering if Dean would have played football in school. Or baseball. Because that was a great save.

And finally, Castiel. Loved the conversation with Dean, and upon re-watch, I realize just how much patience Castiel is displaying with Dean. Dean gets mouthy, Castiel (given appropriate permission) could smite. But he doesn't. Apparently Dean's got someone bigger than angels looking out for him. I also love Dean's expression after he insults Castiel, like he can't believe he just did that.

But I love that whole conversation. "Read the Bible." "I'm a soldier." "We're not here to follow you around." Again, why didn't God do something? He did, Dean. He pulled you out of The Pit so you could be in the right place at the right time to get the job done. *hugs Dean*

Okay, wait. What? Come again? Sixty-six seals? Um . . . noooo . . . try seven. Although maybe they need sixty-six to get them through this season (and next?). Still if you added in some MotWs, you could easily pad out seven seals, at least for this season. But again, this is SPN, so I'll roll with it.

And Castiel's reminder that Dean is dealing with things and beings that are more powerful than he's ever encountered before, and that deserve respect.

Now, it's Sam I'm wondering about. He believes in God, and angels are the good guys. But he's still accepting Ruby's mentorship? Dude, you're playing with fire, and it's not gonna end well.

Can't wait to see where they're going to take all this. I'm prepared for my twitching and twigging to get worse as the season progresses, and I'm really hoping I'm wrong.

But overall, I ♥ this show very, very much.

But I'm still hoping for a MotW, because I miss the urban legends.

Comments

[mtee.livejournal.com]

I kept thinking of Noah - when Dean was wondering why me -- "you want me to build a what???"

Loved this ep so much. It's funny how so many people are wondering why Dean is so sleepy lately! Hey, I love seeing him sleep - he's so cute. For me it's the little "normal" things that make me squee. Just watching them do the regular stuff -- like sleep, wake up - walk around in their socks!

Castiel was very good at showing Dean -- you better watch what you say son!! Remember Dean, angels are warriors -- they don't have to be patient or sweet!

Jensen's facial expressions the entire time he's with Castiel were wonderful. When Castiel got into his personal space -- the eyes were darting around - and you could hear him think -- uh oh, I'm going to get it now. I'm sure he didn't think a threat to put him back was coming. That's a shock.

Great ep.

[leelust.livejournal.com]

Wonderful review! Mostly i'd say Yes to everything :) Just some thoughts:

He does. He puts you and Sam and Bobby in a position to save people. God's "mysterious ways" aren't always miraculous. Sometimes coincidence isn't really coincidence at all
I think he knows. Deep inside he knows. But in the surface with life like his? It's scary to believe in it, to believe that God does know about you and looks after you. Esp. for Dean with all his issues.
Izhi says it's because Dean is all heart.
I don't know who (s)he is but it's very true!
I realize just how much patience Castiel is displaying with Dean. Dean gets mouthy
Wow. Its the first time someone mentions patience. I was feeling more threatening in the end if his speech. I get Castiel didn't see humans for a long time and didn't get them but i love the moment when dean was frightened by what he just said :)
Sixty-six seals? Um . . . noooo . . . try seven
It's "Revelation," singular
You know what my theory is? They do it on purpose. They know about singular and 7 seals but they don't follow The Bible word by word - it's SN universe and it has its own verse of it - in it there are 66 seals and Revelations. Kripke always tried to mix different teachings so maybe not complete foloowing has its reason, you know.

[sarcasticval.livejournal.com]

This makes, what, coronary failure #4 for Dean? "Faith," IMToD, "Fulsom Prison Blues," and now this.

HAHA, I was wondering that myself.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

I kept thinking of Noah - when Dean was wondering why me -- "you want me to build a what???"

Yes! Exactly!

For me it's the little "normal" things that make me squee.

Very close to the top of my SPN wish list is an exposition scene that takes place in a laundromat. Because it just needs to happen.

I can totally understand Dean having words with Castiel, but he really does need to remember to do it with respect. You know?

Jensen is just a master at facial expressions. At some point, I'm going to post an entry about how I'm so fascinated by him as a television actor, since all of my acting experience is theatrical.

[mtee.livejournal.com]

That would be interesting to read.

Plus a picspam of all the different expressions.
As someone who has NEVER done a play or anything theatrical - I'm amazed how people can show so many expressions.

When Hendrickson had his hand in his chest - -all the facial contortions were fabulous. How do you do that?

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

I think he knows. Deep inside he knows.

You know? I'm not convinced. And even if he does know, he doesn't believe it. Remember how freaked out he was when Roy LeGrange told Dean that God chose him to be healed, that Dean was a young man with important work to do? He was freaked out then. He's still freaked out now. He's experienced so much negative and evil in his life, and his strongest hope was in his dad, who died. He's just so . . . conflicted, and I just want to hug him and bake him cookies.

Actually, I guess we're kind of saying the same thing here. It's just that Dean doesn't make the connection between his doing good, and God using him to do good.

"Izhi says it's because Dean is all heart."
I don't know who (s)he is but it's very true!

That would be izhilzha, a very dear friend whom I met in the Sentinel fandom, whom I dragged into CSI and Numb3rs, and who introduced me to (and subsequently enabled me in) SPN. I call her every week after my airing of our shows in order to squee wordlessly at her. I say a lot without saying anything. Then she calls me back and we rehash the awesomeness of our shows.

Wow. Its the first time someone mentions patience. I was feeling more threatening in the end if his speech. I get Castiel didn't see humans for a long time and didn't get them but i love the moment when dean was frightened by what he just said :)

That's what I mean. Obviously, Castiel can't just go smiting Dean on a whim; he'd have to have permission. But the fact that he takes a breath and lays it out for Dean--with words rather than physicality--tells me that Dean is trying Castiel's patience, and Castiel is putting up with it. And in this case, Dean did need the vivid reprimand to remind him that he's not calling the shots here. That's going to be a difficult position for Dean to be in.

Re: Kripke's take on Revelation . . . Oh, I know what you're saying. They're obviously creating their own version of the stuff, and will probably draw on multiple sources. That's why, right now, I'm rolling with it. So far, what they've presented makes sense in the context of SPN. I just get twitchy when they start straying too much. (And honestly? I'd be surprised if they were aware of the singular vs. plural "Revelation(s)." In my experience, most of the world uses the plural form.)

And I'm all squeeful waiting for tomorrow night's ep. And then the Numb3rs season premiere on Friday! It's a good time for TV.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Indeed. :-)

[kalquessa.livejournal.com]

Oh, Dean. I'll quote Castiel early here: Read the Bible.

Seriously, yo. And re. the Moses connection: I think I saw that you's read bellatemple's new Death & Taxes fic, right? Because if not, you should. Hee.

...consorting (hopefully not like that) with Ruby.

Just the way you put that cracked me up.

Then it clicked, Robert De Niro in the remake of Cape Fear. I've not seen it, but I definitely remember that from the promos. Dean, you walking encyclopedia of pop culture.

That rang a very vague bell for me, too. I knew it had to be a movie quote, just by the delivery, but I couldn't think from what movie to save my life. Thank you for knowing, now it can stop bugging me. Dean likes DeNiro flicks almost as much as he likes Nicholson flicks, huh?

But . . . it is a very common mistake, and one that only irks me personally, apparently.

If it makes you feel better, I feel the same way about using the term "clip" when they mean "magazine," a mistake that would be far less common if Hollywood writers stopped propagating it.

And just for the record, Ronald? Dean told you to stay out of the light. If you'd listened to Dean, you wouldn't have gotten shot.

I thought Ronald was kind of an odd choice. Meg made the most sense, Henrickson made a good bit, Ronald...how was his death their fault? I mean in logical terms, rather than Guilt-Ridden Winchester terms?

"Faith," IMToD, "Fulsom Prison Blues," and now this.

I had "Devil's Trap" on the list of eps where Dean's heart is abused, as well, because I thought the YED was doing something to his heart in the cabin when he was making Dean bleed all over. But that may just be in my head, I can't remember if they mention anything about his heart being damaged in IMTOD, or anything.

But I'm still hoping for a MotW, because I miss the urban legends.

Yes, please, and soon! I like the mytharc and everything, but the Monsters of the Week were what got me into this in the first place. (Well, that and the pretty boys, and the pretty car, and the pretty guns, and the kick-ass rock music.)

[leelust.livejournal.com]

And even if he does know, he doesn't believe it
That'd the thing i as trying to say - to know and to believe are two different things - we all can say - there's God but actually don't mean it (like the Earth is round but our experience tells us that it's plain). And when it turns our that There's God and He choose you - i think everyone'd freaked out. Cos it's not a joke anymore it's real. And i Dean's situation it's even more freaking cos of his negative experience through his whole life. I mean in HotH we saw something in Dean's eyes in the end of the ep cos he witnessed something he couldn't call just coincidence or evil and he was ready to believe but then the moment was gone and i think he's prefer never mention it again...
It's just that Dean doesn't make the connection between his doing good, and God using him to do good.
Exactly. It's hard to believe for ordinary person who maybe never saw something evil in his life and i's way harder to believe for Dean.
That would be izhilzha
Oh, i think i saw her here or maybe in Carol's lj. Thanx for explaining and you're lucky you have someine special to squee together :)
Obviously, Castiel can't just go smiting Dean on a whim; he'd have to have permission
Yes, but there's must be another reason - he yank Dean out of hell - not just to smite, right? So he can understand that Dean has purpose bigger than just annoy him :) I'm not an expert in angels and can't say if they have stronger nerves than humans or not.
Dean is trying Castiel's patience, and Castiel is putting up with it. And in this case, Dean did need the vivid reprimand to remind him that he's not calling the shots here
Yeah, maybe but Dean can't changes who he is just cos it's an angel before him - he's just human and he barely believe in angels anyway. For me it's not Dean's fault he was so snarky - it was his coping mechanism. I mean maybe he deserved to be putting in his place (i doubt it but it's my problem) but angel threatening to bring you back in hell? KNowing how dready that place is? Just cos he didn't like how some pure human speak to him? Don't get me wrong - i like that moment it brought so much intence but from Deam's side it was awful i think... looks like there's no difference between evil and good...

I just get twitchy when they start straying too much
Please, explain what's too much for you means? I'm not that religious as you (no offence i respect your opinion) so for me there's no problem at all. I 'd like to know what other people think...

[izhilzha.livejournal.com]

Hi! I am Izhi. :-) I've seen you here, and also at Carol's LJ.

[leelust.livejournal.com]

Oh, hi back! I knew i saw you somewhere - very interesting nickname :) Heard many good words about you :)

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Please, explain what's too much for you means?

That's a difficult question to answer because I won't know it until I see it. There have been a few things that have bothered me over the course of the series, but I can usually step back, look at it in the context of the show, and be okay with it.

In "Faith," when Dean was healed by the use of black magic, and it appeared they had a God-fearing man using the black magic--that really bothered me. Then we discover that it's not him, it's his wife, and Roy had no knowledge of it. That makes it black magic masquerading as God. But then we have Roy telling Dean that God chose Dean to be healed, and that Dean has important work to do. Which ends up being God taking something bad, and turning it around and using it for good. Yes. And we have Layla's conversation with Dean about having faith not just when the miracles happen, but when they don't. (It's easy to have faith when the miracles are happening; not so easy when they don't.)

I LOVED Sam's line to the wife, when he breaks the pendant, and she says, "My God, what have you done?" And Sam tells her, "He's not your God." So, so true, Sammy. Major points to you.

After talking it through with Izhi and digging into the layers, I can totally get behind "Faith."

I was prepared to be twigged by HotH, because I was afraid that they were going to claim that people turn into angels when they die. Which is wrong. Angels and humans are separate created beings, created independently of each other. One does not turn into the other. (Angels appearing to humans as humans is a different thing.) So I was pretty much overjoyed that they made it perfectly clear that people don't become angels. I was also delighted that Dean becomes a little more open to God and divine intervention. He wants to believe, but he can't bring himself to actually believe.

And you'll notice that at the end of that ep, Sam loses his faith (or at least, it weakens), and in the very next episode, he gets possessed. That's not a coincidence in my mind.

But that people don't become angels is what twigged me out when Ruby and the demon witch claimed that Ruby--a demon--was once human. Demons are fallen angels; people do not turn into angels. Ergo, people cannot become fallen angels, i.e., demons. I spent quite a bit of time that evening convinced that Ruby was lying to Dean. Then I realized that the exchange in which we learn that information was an exchange between Ruby and Tammy, so there was no reason for them to lie to each other about it. So that whole "people become demons" thing bothered me until I talked it out with Izhi and assimilated it into my understanding of the SPN 'verse and accepted that it's part of the mythology of the show.

he yank Dean out of hell - not just to smite, right? So he can understand that Dean has purpose bigger than just annoy him

Yes, indeed. Think of it as a mentor/student relationship. The mentor knows more than the student, even if the student thinks he knows all there is to know. And even if the student's attitude is to be expected, that doesn't make the attitude acceptable. But the mentor must show patience toward the student in order for the student to grow and become stronger and more knowledgeable. Right now, that's kind of how I see Castiel. Dean will get on Castiel's last nerve, but I think there is at least some degree of . . . compassion, maybe? . . . regarding Dean's sense of self. But Castiel isn't going to coddle him. It's more of a "Suck it up. There's work to be done" type of thing.

Please keep in mind that I'm not an expert in angels, either. :-) Angels are an important part of my faith, but they're not the biggest or most important part. They just seem to be a part that is more accepted in popular culture and entertainment.

I understand why a lot of people feel like Castiel threatened Dean with a return to Hell, and it did take me aback when he did that. But neither do I think it was uncalled for. As one of God's warriors, Castiel should be shown respect, and Dean showing respect to supernatural beings is not something he's used to doing.

Wow. You've got me talking about this much more deeply than I'd planned to in public. I hope all that made sense.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Re: Bellatemple's fic. Yes. Yes, I have. And I love the last entry/e-mail from Mr. Winchester. "Castiel is totally authorized." Of course he is. Hee!

Yes, Dean does love his DeNiro movies. Actually, I think he likes the tough guys in general.

Re: clip vs. mag . . . yeah, that bothers me, too, now that I know the difference. (And I've had it pointed out to me by actual cops as well.) I believe if you read "Reciprocal Function," you'll see that I did indeed call it a mag.

Re: Devil's Trap . . . hm . . . I hadn't really pegged it as coronary failure so much as getting shredded from the inside out with spontaneous bleeding. Of course, blood loss can lead to coronary failure, so I can see where you're coming from on that. :-)

I think next week is a MotW ep. If the Tivo summary is anything to go by.

[leelust.livejournal.com]

Yes, it all made perfect sense. It's nice talking to you :)
It was really interesting to found out your way through Faith cos it's one of my fav eps. And now it has even more sense for me. And i'm glad you like this ep too.
As to HotH - i think it was amazing ep - very subtle and very private if i can say that. I never believed that that prist became an angel but i like the way they didn't show him as some maniac but just as lost soul.
As to Ruby's talk about demons that were humans once - i don't have problem with that - cos for me it always was mythology of the show - not reference to the Source. I mean i think with that remark they just wanted to emphasize that hell is so awful place that humans who stuck in there could become demons - not as high demons that were angels once but as lesser demons. Something like this. If you accept that in that universe there are two (at least) types of demons it'll be ok to think that part of them were angels and part were humans (if it has any sense...)
Plus, i don't think that Ruby herself has big knowledge about hell. I think she knows only about part she was in and not a big picture so to speak.
Think of it as a mentor/student relationship
Yes, it fits, i like this theory.
As one of God's warriors, Castiel should be shown respect
The thing is it works only if you admit that you believe in God. Dean didn't admit it yet so he can show some other feeling towards Castiel. I mean - it's in Dean's nature to snark and he was biting his tongue after those words...
I mean for me that threatening scene was perfect cos it shows that Castiel doesn't adapt to talk to humans yet - he doesn't inderstand that there can be humans who don't believe in his Lord, you know... i think the more they'll be communicate with Dean the more Castiel learns how to speak with humans and Dean learns more about faith... at least it's how i see it.
Also their conversation reminds me somehow about strategist and tactitian. When strategist sees bigger picture and forced to take hard decisions he can disagree with tactician about some ways of doing things - cos tactitian looks on things differently - more narrow maybe. Um... it's like on war sometimes strategist have to send some troops for inevitable death just to distract the enmy ans win the battle. For tactitian who is in that troops it's not fair but for strategist it's fair cos he'll save more people then loose. If you know what i mean...
And thanx for explaining your position.

Oh, i have one question for you - you as viewer and person with faith - what do you think of the 402 ep in the whole and of its dialogues? I need to know to base my postiton in arguing where some people think that dialogues in 402 were very bad and more of it - boring. I think that dialogues were brilliant and very interesting but i'm more like agnostic (sometimes) so i'd like to know opinion of believer - cos those people claim themselves believers. (which i think is insult to real believers). But feel free to ignore my question of course.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Just for the record, "Faith" is one of my favorite eps. From beginning to end, I love it. :-)

HotH . . . there is much to like in this ep, from the point made about angels being warriors, to the examination of each of the Boys' faith, to their turn-around. I was heartened by Dean's new openness to the possibility of God and discouraged by Sam's discouragement.

Regarding your comment about strategists vs. tacticians . . . this reminds me of my other favorite show, Numb3rs. If you've never seen the show, I highly recommend it. Again, it's a brother relationship, with the oldest brother, Don, being an FBI agent, and the younger brother, Charlie, being a genius mathematician who assists his brother on cases. If you've never seen it, I suggest starting at the beginning. The pilot episode is another ep (along with the SPN pilot) that works excellently not only as an episode, but as a pilot episode and introduction to the series.

Oh, i have one question for you - you as viewer and person with faith - what do you think of the 402 ep in the whole and of its dialogues?

Um . . . could you be a little more specific? That's a really big question. :-)

I loved the episode, and as a believer, I especially loved Sam and Dean's discussions about God (Dean's questions and Sam's answers. Honestly, I about cheered during that scene) and Dean and Castiel's conversation at the end. Dean's attitude is very human, his questions are very human, and I think it's important for people of faith to remember and understand where non-believers are coming from. But Dean's questions cannot be answered in one or two simple sentences. God is far more complex than that.

I'm not sure where people would find it boring, unless they're just not that interested in the spiritual aspect of the show.

As I've said, as a person of faith, I was a little bothered by some of the details (sixty-six seals? Bobby has a special version of Revelation(s)?), but we've already talked about how this is the show's mythology, not reality, so I can let it slide for now. And right now I'm not so much worried about where they might be taking all this as I am interested in seeing what's going to happen next.

If you'd really like to get well-composed thoughts on a person of faith's view of SPN, I suggest we invite Izhilzha into the conversation. She's got a really good grasp of a lot of this stuff, and I think our conversation would benefit.

[leelust.livejournal.com]

"Faith" is one of my favorite eps
Yay!
I was heartened by Dean's new openness to the possibility of God
Me too :) And in his next comments (or referrings) Dean was mentioned he doesn't believe in God and i was somehow confused before i understood that he was open but then had to close himself again with the life og his and the was things happened in it. But i think deep inside he believes. He just doesn't acknowledge it. Yet.

this reminds me of my other favorite show, Numb3rs
Never saw any ep of this show and don't even know which actors it has. But if i'll have the opportunity to find it here i'll remember your recc, thanx :)

could you be a little more specific?
It's really interesting theme but i can't be more specific cos people who called this ep boring weren't specific either. I just didn't see it boring at all (and i don't trust their opinions) but some of them claim themselves as believers and i thought maybe i just see this ep differently... but it was still strange for me cos in this ep there are questions of faith that i suppose must be intersting for every believer... that's why i asked you. To know your opinion on the sibject and to be able to compare it.

I especially loved Sam and Dean's discussions about God (Dean's questions and Sam's answers. Honestly, I about cheered during that scene) and Dean and Castiel's conversation at the end
Yes, me too! What about Dean's speech in the panic room? I don't know is it for offensive for believers but for me it was excellent as an example of ordinary people's belief about God and what He must and mustn't do.

God is far more complex than that.
Of course! But it wasn't research of what is God but just something like whine of the person who saw too much evil in his life. it's common words he used and they reveal only upper level of faith.

I'm not sure where people would find it boring, unless they're just not that interested in the spiritual aspect of the show.
That what i couldn't understand - how eople who call themselves believers can be not interested in spiritual aspect and more of it - call it boring? I think something is wrong with them or with what they call their faith.

I suggest we invite Izhilzha into the conversation.
I'd really like that. I never mind person who join the conversation (even if it's butt in) if said person has good thoughts to discuss or some interesting info to share.

And now i can't wait to see your opinion on 403 and very hope you'll like it. *hopes*

[izhilzha.livejournal.com]

Hi! Joining in the conversation as requested. :-)

was heartened by Dean's new openness to the possibility of God
Me too :) And in his next comments (or referrings) Dean was mentioned he doesn't believe in God and i was somehow confused before i understood that he was open but then had to close himself again with the life og his and the was things happened in it. But i think deep inside he believes.

I definitely think that Dean wants to believe, as he said to demon!Casey in "Sin City." But as you point out, he doesn't feel that he can accept the idea that there is anyone good looking out for him, interested in his welfare, because of all the bad stuff that has happened in his life. Evil, especially supernatural evil, is real to Dean; good is...something humans do, sometimes.

And I loved the scene where Sam and Dean are arguing over whether Castiel is an angel and Dean blurts out that he doesn't like being singled out at birthday parties, much less by God. So maybe some of his resistance to the idea of God is based less on Dean's life experiences and more on his low self-esteem. Why would God bother with Dean, anyway? (Well, we know Dean's awesome, but clearly he hasn't really accepted that yet. *g*)

I just didn't see it boring at all (and i don't trust their opinions) but some of them claim themselves as believers and i thought maybe i just see this ep differently... but it was still strange for me cos in this ep there are questions of faith that i suppose must be intersting for every believer...

Huh. I did find the pacing to be off in a few places in 4.02, but that was an editing/storytelling issue, nothing to do with the spiritual content, which I rather loved.

Yes, me too! What about Dean's speech in the panic room? I don't know is it for offensive for believers but for me it was excellent as an example of ordinary people's belief about God and what He must and mustn't do.

If someone found that speech offensive, then I would tell them to talk to more people who are unbelievers or not decided. It was a very common point of view for non-religious people, and a series of problems and doubts that even believers struggle with. I wanted to hug Dean, and then see if I could find a way to explain to him why my view of God is different than his.

how eople who call themselves believers can be not interested in spiritual aspect and more of it - call it boring? I think something is wrong with them or with what they call their faith.

I'd guess that either they're really unnerved by the fact that the show is going there at all (perhaps they believe that fiction shouldn't mess with "real world" spirituality), or else, yeah, there's something off about their faith. As far as I see it, one's faith in God isn't limited to Sunday and church. It extends into the stories you watch and how you react to them. (That's a major reason why "Faith" was the episode to convice me that SPN was more than just another horror show; it really had some interesting things to say, and wasn't afraid to tread on dangerous ground with subtlety and grace. I'm very curious whether Sera Gamble is a person of faith, since she wrote "Faith," "Houses of the Holy," "Jus in Bello" (which had Nancy), and "Lazarus Rising.")

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

I see Izhi has joined us, and she addressed several of these points very well.

Re: Dean's speech in the panic room . . . I agree with Izhi here and say again that it was a very common, human, non-believer/undecided attitude. Even many believers struggle with the question of why bad things happen to good people. My faith does have an answer for that, but it's not always an answer non-believers are ready or willing to accept. I wanted to tell Dean things about free will and the Fall of Adam and Eve and things like that, but those kinds of answers don't always satisfy. There might have been a time, when I was younger, when Dean's speech might have rubbed me the wrong way, but as I see it now, those are very real questions. It made me want to hug the stuffings out of Dean.

I was more put off by his anger and his insults during his conversation with Castiel. Again, it's a understandable, human response, and God understands anger. But my hackles wanted to go up because of the insulting tone Dean took. It's similar to getting upset when someone insults your parents. But in Dean's case, lashing out at God could be the first step in growing his faith, because being angry at God indicates at least some level of belief. You can't really be angry at something you don't believe in.

just something like whine of the person who saw too much evil in his life.

I think Izhi explains Dean's experiences with good vs. his experiences with evil very well. (Especially: Evil, especially supernatural evil, is real to Dean; good is...something humans do, sometimes.) And it's one of the reasons I really hope Castiel continues to be one of the good guys . . . I've said for a long time that the Boys, with all the Evil they encounter day after day, need the hope that seeing Good would do them.

That what i couldn't understand - how eople who call themselves believers can be not interested in spiritual aspect and more of it - call it boring?

As a person of faith, my biggest concern when things like faith get brought heavily into a show, is that my faith will be terribly misrepresented.

It might take a couple days for me to catch up on 403. I watched it last night (twice), and being unspoiled for it, it threw me some curve balls that I'm still deciding whether I like them or not. But overall? Not quite the level of squee of the past two weeks, but there was definitely a lot of good stuff in there!

[leelust.livejournal.com]

Hi!

I definitely think that Dean wants to believe, as he said to demon!Casey in "Sin City."
Yes! I forgot about that in the moment. But it was beautiful touch on my opinion - confessing to demon - cos it's easier for Dean than confess to himnself...

And I loved the scene where Sam and Dean are arguing over whether Castiel is an angel
I love it too! Especially his line Why me? That sums uo for me his attitude. And did you notice Bobby's look at that moment? Awesome.
maybe some of his resistance to the idea of God is based less on Dean's life experiences and more on his low self-esteem.
I think it based in both. His life tought him that bad things happen to good people and the events in his life forced him to have huge problems with self-esteem - and both those facters now force him refuse the idea of God's existence simly cos Dean can't believe that God can choose him to do something important. Dean really think that saving human lives would count for cheating with credit cards. It's unbelievable but he thinks he's right.
I did find the pacing to be off in a few places in 4.02
I was telling of spiritual aspect of course and i didn't find in 402 some off pacing mon\ments but actually it's interesting to know what you found off pacing and what was the base for it?
It was a very common point of view for non-religious people, and a series of problems and doubts that even believers struggle with
Thanx! That's what i thought too. But it's good to know that believers see it the same way. I was so glad they wrote those words for Dean - cos it's natural for him to think that way. It made him even more human :)

I wanted to hug Dean, and then see if I could find a way to explain to him why my view of God is different than his.
Yes, me too again :) Maybe w/o my view of God cos i don't dedine it for myself yet but hug him def. :)
I think he knew he's off on the subject but it wasnt about God but about the unfairness around him.
either they're really unnerved by the fact that the show is going there
No, def. not that. See? Those group are 'translaters' *i used quote marks cos i don't see them as real translators* and they say after 402 that the ep was extremely boring and they'll 'fix' it in they translation cos they think they watch not the drama but ugly cheaty comedy. I don't like what they do but their comment about boring just got me - how can it be boring? I have some issues with them but most of all with their attitude to think that they know all better then even Sera Gamble - i think that position is inappropriate for those who claim themselves believers.

And thanx for awesome words about Faith. It was first ep that killed me, nailed me and left me literally breathless. Cos of its awesomeness.

I'm very curious whether Sera Gamble is a person of faith
I like it that telling in many interviews about gore and hurt she can write so subtly and very complex scripts.

[leelust.livejournal.com]

but as I see it now, those are very real questions
Yes, that was the main reason to love that scene - realism of it.
my hackles wanted to go up because of the insulting tone Dean took
I think i understand you but i understand and Dean too - for my opinion it was Dean's way of fighting scare - show his game face and insult 'enemy' with rude words to disbalance him. It was like teenager insult an adult just cos he's scared of him or of what he can do.
But in Dean's case, lashing out at God could be the first step in growing his faith, because being angry at God indicates at least some level of belief
Yes! He didn't admit it yet but he already believes in something above him.

I really hope Castiel continues to be one of the good guys
I hope that too. Maybe for different reasons but i like to know there's someone from the other side of the battle.

that my faith will be terribly misrepresented.
That i understand but as we agreed (i hope) there's no actual teaching involved - only SN universe's teaching so i hope it's ok.

I'm still deciding whether I like them or not. But overall? Not quite the level of squee of the past two weeks, but there was definitely a lot of good stuff in there! Then i'll wait for your post. As for me i love it very much but not to squee about cos this ep left me devastating and very sad. I know it was its goal and i love all aspects of the ep but still to watch it was depressing. Now i need to find bright sade in this situation to keep my faith in good and probably happy ending...

[izhilzha.livejournal.com]

i understand and Dean too - for my opinion it was Dean's way of fighting scare - show his game face and insult 'enemy' with rude words to disbalance him.

Yes! I think that's right on--we see Dean do this a lot, and to a point I almost agree with him here, because Castiel is being very mysterious and kind of making things worse, as far as Dean is concerned. (Also, angel or not, I doubt Castiel had the authority to threaten to throw Dean back into Hell. The angel was getting tired of Dean's tone, I take it. If he and Dean are going to be fellow soldiers, I think Castiel is going to have to learn how Dean acts and not mind.)

But in Dean's case, lashing out at God could be the first step in growing his faith, because being angry at God indicates at least some level of belief

Sure. That's quite true. (Although I always want to add something in here, because I see so many believers who think that being angry with God is some kind of mortal sin. It's not; it's just emotion. Acting *against* God because you're angry with Him might be sinful, but being frustrated and angry is just human. God is hard to understand, and that can freak us out.)

I shall post a few comments on 4.03 in my own LJ this weekend. There was a lot to love, and a couple of things I wish they'd done differently (I'm a John-girl, so I'm not happy with the casting for young John). But this season is going strong so far.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Although I always want to add something in here, because I see so many believers who think that being angry with God is some kind of mortal sin. It's not; it's just emotion. Acting *against* God because you're angry with Him might be sinful, but being frustrated and angry is just human.

Have you seen The Apostle with Robert Duvall? One of my very favorite scenes in that movie is when his character, Sonny, is pacing his room, shaking his fist at the ceiling, and yelling at God. The dialogue is great, because it's something along the lines of "I love you, God, but I'm angry at You!"

Job got mad at God, and I believe Moses got mad at God once or twice. Being angry is human, and God understands that.

Not that this tells you anything you don't already know. I'm just sayin'. :-)

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

those group are 'translaters' *i used quote marks cos i don't see them as real translators* and they say after 402 that the ep was extremely boring and they'll 'fix' it in they translation cos they think they watch not the drama but ugly cheaty comedy.

This confounds me. I'm going to take a guess that English is not their first language, because I don't see how anyone who speaks English as their primary language can see SPN as a comedy. Yes, there are definitely comedic elements in it, as do a lot of shows in the horror genre. There are even horror-comedies. But SPN is clearly a drama. Season one I would categorize as action/horror. But these translators see the show as a comedy?

It sounds like they just don't get it.

[leelust.livejournal.com]

Castiel is being very mysterious and kind of making things worse, as far as Dean is concerned
Yes! I mean for a person who claims that doesn't believe in God the words of Lord's angel means almost nothing - cos he doeesn't believe in angels too. What i like though is the expression on Dean's face after those words - he can claim anything but the fact was on his face - he believes. Maybe not strong or faithful but it was first step for me.
angel or not, I doubt Castiel had the authority to threaten to throw Dean back into Hell. The angel was getting tired of Dean's tone
Yeah, i was frustrated at first cos of those words but then i thought - angels aren't perfect too. They're close to God - yes, but they weren't communicate with humans for so long and i actually like that they make mistakes and have to learn too.
that being angry with God is some kind of mortal sin. It's not; it's just emotion.
Yes! My thoughts exactly! I mean maybe we can't get to know God but God can see through us and He sees if it's just emotions or something worse.

I shall post a few comments on 4.03 in my own LJ this weekend
Interesting, can you provide a link?
And, if you don't mind i'd like to friend you.

[leelust.livejournal.com]

Of course they're not english-speaking people - as well as me. That's why they translate and dubbed the show. I don't know if it's a sin to dl ep and dub it and put it on torrent for other people to dl but that's what they do. I can't blame them for that cos i dl eps too (non-american here *sigh*) but i buy dvd later just to support our show :)
But yeah, the thing is they call it 'their style' - to translate and dub SN with using bad slang to make it looks fun. Cos they think that our peole can't understand good drama i think... which is stupid but that's their opinion. They're not profi - amateurs but their pride is high and it makes them think they're better then profi writers which is also stupid for me...

these translators see the show as a comedy?
Actually i think it's worse - they know what they see but think that it'd be cool to switch it from drama to comedy - putting their own vision of the show before the show itself. *sigh*

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

:-) I figured the translators weren't English speakers, but then I thought, well, there are English speakers who also speak Russian (Russian, right? I have no idea why I think you're in Russia, but I got that idea somwhere). But since it sounded like you were talking about fans translating the show, I rather figured that English is their second language. (I try not to jump to too many conclusions when traveling on the Internet. We live in a very diverse world. I just wanted to clarify.)

A brief digression: I've mentioned that some of my fic has been translated from English to Chinese. When the translator sends it back to me (which is neat to see, but I have no idea what it says) and I run it through a translation program to translate it back into English . . . it's hilarious! It makes absolutely no sense when reverse translated. :-D [/digression]

Also, I wasn't sure if SPN airs in your part of the world.

But yeah, the thing is they call it 'their style' - to translate and dub SN with using bad slang to make it looks fun.

Wow. Talk about something getting lost in translation. But if that's their attitude, I can understand why they thought the really interesting spiritual discussions were boring . . . they don't really lend themselves to comedy or bad slang. They're deep character-revealing scenes. Too bad your translators can't appreciate that.

Your English is very good (much better than my Russian, which I don't speak at all ;-) ). Do you watch the show in English? I assume maybe you do, if you know that these translators are screwing up the interpretations and making the show into something it's not.

Cos they think that our peole can't understand good drama i think...

Okay, that makes absolutely no sense. Russians are masters of tragic drama. For example, I saw a performance of Swan Lake at the theater where I used to work . . . and it had a happy ending. And thought, "Wha???? They gave it an American ending! 'Cause that's not how the original ends." (I ended up having to explain that to several people who didn't know.)

And let me just say . . . if I'm way off base, and you're not Russian, I apologize profusely. Like I said, I don't know where I got the idea that you're Russian, but for some reason, that's what's sticking in my head.

[leelust.livejournal.com]

First of - relax, i'm Russian and live in Russia (there are plenty of russian-speaking people around the net who don't live here). And i think you could see some Carol's replies to me as Russian cos we used to joke about it :)

I rather figured that English is their second language
Yes, and not even third i'd say *joking*
I run it through a translation program
OMG! Never do that again!!! Never! I don't know what programm you used but there are good translators and bad translators and then there are translation programms... nothing could be worse believe me :)

I wasn't sure if SPN airs in your part of the world.
Yes, they aired 2.5 sesons of the show (stopped whaen show went on spring hiatus and promissed to return again later - i think maybe it'll be in new year). The show aires on small channel but we're big country so the number of viewers is bigger that all american fans i believe :) Or at least even to your numbers.
Talk about something getting lost in translation
Yeah, the thing is the translation itself can be ok at least but then they 'fix' it with slang and ruin the show :(
Oh, have to say that TV dubbing is better though - many mistakes in translation and some dropped jokes but at least it's literary. *i hate the voices though*

But if that's their attitude, I can understand why they thought the really interesting spiritual discussions were boring
Yeah, i know but i hate it that they claim themselves as believers and it looks like they can watch so interesting talks (before dubbing) and other people can't cos they have no chance to know what our boys were talking about cos they don't know english. The problem (for me) is that people who watch in dubbing have no chance to know what this show about, that it's high level drama not just horror flick with comedy attitude.
much better than my Russian, which I don't speak at all
Hee :) Considering that you compare my level of knowledge of english to zero of your knowledge of russian i can't take it as compliment but thanx for kind words :)

Do you watch the show in English?
Of course! When i didn't understand some parts i wait for subtitles and rewatch with them to know exactly what they were saying and don't depend on someone else's interpretation. Plus, i adore Jensen's voice and just physically can't watch SN in dubbing - i want to hear His voice not some substitute.

that makes absolutely no sense. Russians are masters of tragic drama
Yes. But those were great writers in the past and we're talking about ordinary people who read trash 'literature' and watch reality shows (no offence was meant in case you like reality shows. I can judge only for native ones and they're just horrible). I mean i think those translators just think that for ordinary people they have to 'facilitate' SN and makes it more funny cos (i think) they think of ordinary people as stupid drunk brats. I don't like that attitude at all.

I saw a performance of Swan Lake at the theater where I used to work . . . and it had a happy ending.
Really? Like really really? OMG!!!! That was funny! :))) I can see why they did that but again - it was funny :)

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Hee :) Considering that you compare my level of knowledge of english to zero of your knowledge of russian i can't take it as compliment but thanx for kind words :)

Aw, hon. It really was a compliment. :-)

I saw a performance of Swan Lake at the theater where I used to work . . . and it had a happy ending.
Really? Like really really? OMG!!!! That was funny! :))) I can see why they did that but again - it was funny :)

Oh, I understand why they did it, too--an happy ending for an American audience, I guess. But I just sat there thinking, "Waaaaaait a minute. That's not how it ends. They don't live happily ever after! She dies!" And when I had friends tell me how great they thought it was, I'd have to tell them, "You know that's not how it really ends, right?" I mean, it's nothing to get really upset over, but I like people to know how the story *really* goes. Ya know?

[izhilzha.livejournal.com]

Absolutely, you may friend me. Welcome! :-)

I haven't gotten around to posting my thoughts yet, but hopefully tonight or tomorrow.

What i like though is the expression on Dean's face after those words - he can claim anything but the fact was on his face - he believes. Maybe not strong or faithful but it was first step for me.

That's true. It's like he finally has to accept what's happening...once he got all his fear and anger out, ranting at Castiel, he could move on to acceptance.

[leelust.livejournal.com]

Thanx, hon, i know i suck but it's ok as long as you manage to understand what i was saying :)

I like people to know how the story *really* goes
Actually it was my point in this discussion - people can choose for themselves what they want to see - people who present something classic don't have to change something to be more pleasant. I know that before it was like cliche - all (almost) ballets and operas end tragic. And now people prefer Happy Ending (i know i prefer it myself) but that's not the reason to change classic i think. The same goes with translation - no need to think that funny show will be more popular than drama - people must choose themselves - not cos some translators chose it for them.
I mean - for me it's ok to do Swan Lake with happy ending but you have to tell people defore they'll buy tickets that it's not the real Swan Lake but your vision of it.

[leelust.livejournal.com]

Thanx. And it's ok - no rush needed.

he could move on to acceptance.
Yep, i think that too. So his rant was good thing actually :) I can't see if he'll believer (in true form) but i think it's huge progress even if he just accepts the fact that there's something good above us. And no matter what they plans are and how they behave they already bring him to life again - what can be better?

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

i know i suck but it's ok as long as you manage to understand what i was saying :)

But you don't suck! You understand American idioms and slang, and I understand very well what you write, and you can watch a TV show in a second language without dubbing or subtitles. Mastering a second language is a huge accomplishment to my way of thinking, and from what I can tell, you have an excellent grasp of the English (and not just English, but American English) language. English is a very difficult language. The fact that we've had such a lengthy and involved conversation says that you're very good with English! Don't sell yourself short.

Re: making changes for happy endings . . . one of the best examples I can think of is The Little Mermaid. There was a cartoon version of the story when I was little, based on the real Hans Christian Andersen story, and it always made me cry, because the mermaid dies at the end of the story. Then Disney did their version of it, and the first time I saw it, I thought, "Wait! This has a sad ending! She dies . . . No, this is Disney, they'll change the ending. The mermaid and the prince will live happily ever after." And they do, and it's fine. But then I read a translation of the real story, and as an adult, I understand the original ending better than I did as a child, and I like the original ending better, because it's not actually a sad ending.

[leelust.livejournal.com]

Thanx again :)
The thing is thatmy knowledge of english works in one way - i can understand what you tell me or write to me (with sounds i'm worse - need to hear them couple of times) but i cant speak hence i can't express my thoughts easy and with all nuances i can use with my native language. And *blushes* i don't know tenses. I mean i study them but can't remember all of them - only easiest ones. *sigh*

Re: The Little Mermaid. I know what you're talking about - stories of HC Andersen are very popular here. And before we have Disney in my cuntry (read - cold war) we always knew The Little Mermaid as very sad story. And i tell you this - i'm glad Disney made that story with happy ending cos i remember myself as a kid and i was crying when i read this story and i couldn't understand how come fairy tale has bad unhappy ending? I mean - i know the origianl very good parable but if you read it as udult. For children it's sad cos they can't understand deep sense of this story. So i'm glad Disney did that :)