I think for the most part, we're understanding each other in regards to "loser." Remember that in WIaWSNB, there are two Deans: there's "our" Dean, and there's "fantasy" Dean, or more accurately, the perception of "fantasy" Dean. The show never shows "fantasy" Dean; only the perceptions of others in regards to "fantasy" Dean. (That all has to do with the point of view the ep is written in, but I won't get into that here.)
In WIaWSNB, from what I remember (because I haven't listened to the commentary in a while), Kripke wanted to make Dean a "loser." As I understand it, he wanted to turn Dean into a drifter, someone who can't hold a job, a heavy drinker, someone without purpose or direction in life. Someone who isn't doing anything to contribute to society or benefit those around him or the world he lives in. But the writing team argued that even at his worst, Dean would never be that bad.
So in the actual ep, we get (fantasy) Dean as someone who maybe doesn't have everything together, someone who everyone assumes is on the losing end of the scale--people are constantly asking him if he's been drinking and assume that he has, Sam easily believes that Dean got in over his head gambling, Dean grew up stealing from Sam (money and girlfriends) and ditching family events (Sam's graduation)--but Dean also has a steady job, a steady girlfriend, a permanent home. So while the Dean of the fantasy world might not have great ambitions (like Sam's ambition to become a lawyer), he does have people, like his mom and Carmen, who genuinely care about him. Even "fantasy" Dean isn't a total loser.
And it goes without saying that "our" Dean, the real Dean, the Dean that ended up in the fantasy, isn't a loser. We're seeing our not-loser Dean step into the life of a Dean that does have some loser qualities (but not to the extent that Kripke originally wanted to take it). Hence the confusion on everyone's part about why Dean is acting so strange. This isn't the Dean they're used to, particularly Sam. This Dean isn't acting like a selfish loser, because our Dean isn't a selfish loser.
And if I get much more into this, I'll start analyzing what the episode says about Dean's image of himself, since it is all in his head, and that's a really lengthy conversation in and of itself.
But does that make sense? That's what I mean by Kripke wanting to make fantasy Dean a loser, but the writing team talked him out of it. Even fantasy Dean wouldn't be as bad as Kripke wanted to go with it.
I think I hurt my brain.
Less than two weeks until the new season. Woo hoo! Then I can go back and watch all the interviews I've had to miss up until now.
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branchandroot
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Date: 2008-09-06 12:27 pm (UTC)I think for the most part, we're understanding each other in regards to "loser." Remember that in WIaWSNB, there are two Deans: there's "our" Dean, and there's "fantasy" Dean, or more accurately, the perception of "fantasy" Dean. The show never shows "fantasy" Dean; only the perceptions of others in regards to "fantasy" Dean. (That all has to do with the point of view the ep is written in, but I won't get into that here.)
In WIaWSNB, from what I remember (because I haven't listened to the commentary in a while), Kripke wanted to make Dean a "loser." As I understand it, he wanted to turn Dean into a drifter, someone who can't hold a job, a heavy drinker, someone without purpose or direction in life. Someone who isn't doing anything to contribute to society or benefit those around him or the world he lives in. But the writing team argued that even at his worst, Dean would never be that bad.
So in the actual ep, we get (fantasy) Dean as someone who maybe doesn't have everything together, someone who everyone assumes is on the losing end of the scale--people are constantly asking him if he's been drinking and assume that he has, Sam easily believes that Dean got in over his head gambling, Dean grew up stealing from Sam (money and girlfriends) and ditching family events (Sam's graduation)--but Dean also has a steady job, a steady girlfriend, a permanent home. So while the Dean of the fantasy world might not have great ambitions (like Sam's ambition to become a lawyer), he does have people, like his mom and Carmen, who genuinely care about him. Even "fantasy" Dean isn't a total loser.
And it goes without saying that "our" Dean, the real Dean, the Dean that ended up in the fantasy, isn't a loser. We're seeing our not-loser Dean step into the life of a Dean that does have some loser qualities (but not to the extent that Kripke originally wanted to take it). Hence the confusion on everyone's part about why Dean is acting so strange. This isn't the Dean they're used to, particularly Sam. This Dean isn't acting like a selfish loser, because our Dean isn't a selfish loser.
And if I get much more into this, I'll start analyzing what the episode says about Dean's image of himself, since it is all in his head, and that's a really lengthy conversation in and of itself.
But does that make sense? That's what I mean by Kripke wanting to make fantasy Dean a loser, but the writing team talked him out of it. Even fantasy Dean wouldn't be as bad as Kripke wanted to go with it.
I think I hurt my brain.
Less than two weeks until the new season. Woo hoo! Then I can go back and watch all the interviews I've had to miss up until now.