SPN 5.21 - THEY CAN'T LEAVE IT THERE!!!!!!

[feliciakw]

I . . . Wha . . . . Bwphew;oie.enwiofds . . .



Oh. Wow. I . . .

My brain is broken.

One point I will say I didn't appreciate the exposition that put forth that Death can kill God. That was my biggest tweak about the ep.

Everything else? AWESOME! Including Death being willing to help Dean. I did find it interesting that Death compared Dean to a snarky bacterium, because yes, the right bacterium (or virus . . . Croatoan, anyone?) can in fact bring down a much more powerful organism. So, I'm gonna assume that Death was doing as much posturing as anyone.

Also, that actor was a fantastic choice.

I'm even okay with Crowley being the one to make Bobby walk again, because there was a cost involved.

And Cas! Oh, Cas! I really hope you get your angel mojo back. Seriously. *hugs Cas*

Cannot wait for the download. I'm ready to re-watch this one right now.

And next week? Oh! *gasp*! FLAIL!!!!!111!!1eleventyeleven.

Why couldn't they have done a 2-hour season finale? Huh?

And also, Jensen looked good.

Comments

[kimmer1227.livejournal.com]

*flails*

Oh, my. So much goodness.

I like Death. Can he stay? Is that wrong?

I'm okay with Sam saving the world. As a Dean!girl, I wanted it to be Dean, but it's about time Sammy gets to be the hero.

This is gonna be a looooooong week.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Well, from the very beginning, this has been (or was supposed to be) Sam's story. Over the course of these five years, I think Jensen turned out to be far more awesome than anyone anticipated, and a large bulk of the work fell to him. But up until this year, he hasn't really been a part of the mythos, and it ultimately is Sam's story to make or break, save or condemn the world.

Ya know?

In other news: flail

[ficwriter1966.livejournal.com]

Death was excellent. Terrific choice of actor - eerie looking and very...creepy. Intelligent. In control. Loved his scene with Dean.
Love Crowley.
Glad Bobby can walk again - now he can stop whining.
Loved Death and the Chicago deep dish. Poor Dean, thinking it was gonna turn into maggots or something.
Matt Frewer was great, but the green slime? Ugh.

One thing, though. "The righteous man who begins it must be the one to end it." Did they throw that out the window?

News for later on: SPN reruns moving to Friday at 9:00. I imagine come September, Show will be back riding Smallville's coattails.

And...JDM has TWO kids? Bzuh?

[saberivojo.livejournal.com]

I agree. I loved Bobby walking. I loved Cas waking up weak in a hospital with no mojo (but want him to get it back too) I loved Bobby and Sam fighting together. Bobby hasn't lost an inch of kick ass. I loved Sam fighting and saving peole. I loved Dean's conversation with Death. I loved how he was choking down a piece of pizza. God, Jensen can act. I loved Sam's comment about how he misses hunting Wendigos.I loved Dean and Bobby's talk with the rings. I love Crowley and the whole Chicago thing. We should have a two hour finale - I was thinking that myself.

[leelust.livejournal.com]

Dean-Death scene was well acted but everything else? Aren't you tired of all retcon? So drinking demon blood is now good, selling your soul is good, demon is more kind then angel and it's good, and on top of that all the one who has to stop it isn't now Dean but sam? And you like it? I'm bummed.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Yes, I thought it was an excellent and exciting episode.

I didn't see any retconning in this ep. Demon blood is not good, it is necessary to make a vessel strong enough to contain Lucifer. Being possessed by Lucifer is bad. Drinking demon blood is bad. I'm not sure where you got that it was retconned to be good.

Selling your soul is not good, though how many times has it been done on this show in order to save someone else? John sold his soul to save Dean, Dean sold his soul to save Sam, now Bobby has sold his soul to save the world. I'm not seeing where it was depicted as being "good" here any more than it has been portrayed as being "good" in the past.

Crowley is not kind. He's a demon, and he's holding Bobby's soul as ransom and collateral against Sam and Dean. He's self-serving, and right now serving his own interests means helping Sam, Dean, and Bobby. As soon as this is all over, he'll go back to making crossroads deals and Sam and Dean will be back to hunting him.

The show has always been Sam's story. Jensen's awesomeness drew more attention to Dean than I think was originally expected, but Sam has always been the "special child," the one around whom the conflict between good and evil revolved. So from a full-circle, coming to a close story arch aspect, yes, it makes total sense to me that Sam is the one to finish things, and I can go along with that.

Do I think Dean will play a key role in the end? Absolutely. Because somehow Dean is going to have to save Sam from Lucifer (and from himself?). Dean might well be the one to have to kill Lucifer (which will be problematic while Lucifer is possessing Sam). In the end, I think it will be as it always has been, both brothers will be needed to get the job done. Because though they are each strong in their own right, they are stronger together.

Yes, I really enjoyed this episode and had a really fun time watching it, and I'm looking forward to taking a closer look at it after the download.

[mcsheplovers.livejournal.com]

Because though they are each strong in their own right, they are stronger together.

Sooo much this!

Looking forward to next week (and chewing off what's left of my fingernails).

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

I was so incredibly tickled by the deep dish pizza in Chi-Town. (Admittedly, I prefer thin-crust NY pizza.) And poor Dean. I didn't think so much that it was going to turn into something horrible, as that it might kill him.

Matt Frewer was great! The green slime made me squeak.

Re: The righteous man angle . . . You know I'm a spoilerphobe, so I'm just taking a guess here, but it actually is going to have to be Dean to kill Lucifer if Lucifer is possessing Sam's body. Or get Lucifer out of Sam's body once he's in the box, or whatever. So in that regard, it will be Dean who "ends it."

Also, if you look at how everything "has fallen into place" (read: been cobbled together over the course of a couple of seasons), if Dean, as Michael's vessel and "the righteous man" has refused to be Michael's vessel, that changes things a bit, don't you think?

So, yes, at this point, until I have more information and see the resolution, I'm willing to handwave that point.

I'd heard that the time slot was getting changed next year. I think SV is probably a better pairing with SPN anyway, they're both more along the action/adventure line than teen emo-vampires in angst.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Oh, I love the comedy stylings of Dean and Cas. Their phone conversations are priceless. Love, love, love.

Yes, I'm pretty much in agreement with everything you've said.

*squee!!!*

[leelust.livejournal.com]

Demon blood is not good, it is necessary to make a vessel strong enough to contain Lucifer.
In the end good is what will help to save the world and since drinking demon blood will help it hence it's good because without it sam's plan won't work.
Selling your soul is not good, though how many times has it been done on this show in order to save someone else?
Look at consequences. What happened to John we don't know (i still can see them going John=God root), Dean made a deal and been reprimanded about it abd payed for it 3 years on the show and 40 years in hell, now Bobby sold his soul and what? They laughed about it, made a joke of it and he was promissed he'll get his soul back. the whole 'selling your soul' thing became a joke.
Crowley is not kind. He's a demon
Yet he easily fixed Bobby and cas couldn't do it so who's better for mere human?
The show has always been Sam's story
Yes and i'd agree with it if there was no S4 with finally Dean included into mytharc and being somehow special in a way 'the one who started it has to finish it'. Now it's a joke too because it was taken from dean and given to sam.
Do I think Dean will play a key role in the end? Absolutely
The only role for Dean in the finale i see as giving yellow crayon speech and nothing more. He's nothing but Sam's brother. And it's even more ridiculous considering that sam couldn't do anything with Meg and she wasn't high ranked demon but now suddenly everyone is sure sam can take over Luci? How come? How come it's not retcon?

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Okay, I think we're going to have to agree that we don't view the show in the same way.

in the end good is what will help to save the world and since drinking demon blood will help it hence it's good because without it sam's plan won't work.

You've lost me. Good will save the world. Yes. But that doesn't make drinking demon blood "good." When Cas was explaining that Nick was drinking demon blood, I saw Sam look apprehensive at the thought. He's been there, he knows how horrible it is, and he's now being told that not only might he have to say yes to Lucifer, he might have to drink demon blood on top of that. I'm really not getting where you see that drinking demon blood is now good. More like a necessary evil. It might be necessary, but it's still evil.

now Bobby sold his soul and what? They laughed about it,

Did you miss the part where Dean demanded that Crowley give Bobby's soul back? Dean was certainly not viewing it as a joke. I not once got the impression that they were treating it like a joke. Perhaps they were not giving it the grave attention that they have in the past, but for one thing, they've got more immediate problems, and for another, it is, admittedly, a plot device they've used before. And everyone was just so freakin' glad that Bobby could walk again, so yeah, there was some relief in that. I really don't see where it became a joke.

Yet he easily fixed Bobby and cas couldn't do it

The only reason Crowley could do it is because Bobby made a deal and Crowley added it into the contract. As I said, Crowley was not doing it out of the kindness of his heart. There was a cost to Bobby--his soul--and having Bobby fully functional was to Crowley's advantage. This is certainly not the first time a demon deal has been of benefit to someone. John's deal kept Dean from dying. Dean's deal brought Sam back to life.

As for Cas not being able to heal Bobby, he wasn't able to heal Bobby at the beginning of the season. I think I mentioned before that I believe it is because Cas couldn't undo the damage done to Bobby by another angel (Zach). When Zach first confronted Dean, he told Dean that if he refused, Bobby would never walk again. When Castiel showed up, he told Zach to heal the damage he (Zach) had done to Sam and Dean, which Zach did. Cas did not include Bobby in that direction, so Zach didn't fix the damage he'd done to Bobby. Castiel didn't heal Sam and Dean; he told Zach to do it. That tells me that Cas couldn't undo Zach's work. And since Zach is the one who confined Bobby to a wheelchair, Cas couldn't undo that damage, either.

And now that Cas is without his mojo, he's doubly not able to heal people.

For the rest of it, we're just going to have to continue to see things differently. Will Dean be the one to save Sam from Lucifer? I think he will. In which case, he will be the one to "finish it."

Also, if you read my reply to ficwriter, I think it all sort of fits together. Dean is the "righteous man" to "finish it." He's Michael's vessel. But he refused to be Michael's vessel. That changes the playing field. And until I see the complete resolution, I'm willing to wait to see how it all plays out.

sam couldn't do anything with Meg and she wasn't high ranked demon but now suddenly everyone is sure sam can take over Luci?

You're also going back three and a half seasons if you're talking about when Sam was possessed by Meg. It was his first time, he had zero experience playing serious mind games with a demon, much less "brain wrestling." Since then he has been through a lot, and learned a lot the hard way. There's been change and growth in the characters. That can't be ignored, and it certainly, in this instance, is not what I would call a retcon. In fact, if Sam doesn't put out a good showing against Lucifer, I will feel like the past several seasons have been for naught, because why put your characters through all of that and still have them fail?

As far as Dean no longer being part of the mythos . . . I'm unspoiled for next week, but I wouldn't count Dean out just yet. When it comes down to it, I think he will be a necessary and integral part of the final resolution.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

I'm getting ready to re-watch the download now. I enjoyed the ep so freakin' much, with where things are going and how are they gonna resolve this.

Six days until the next ep!

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Oh! I think I get where you're thinking they're making a joke out of Bobby selling his soul. The whole thing about Bobby kissing Crowley, right?

I saw that as totally playing to a certain part of the fandom. Which, yes, is very annoying, and I could have done without that particular section of the conversation (as is evidenced that I didn't even really recall it during our conversation). But I didn't see the characters making a joke out of it. Dean even scolded Sam when Sam asked about sealing the deal. The only one who actually "joked" about it was Crowley, and he's a demon.

[mtee.livejournal.com]

Did you see that swollen eye! now THAT'S what it looks like when you get a beat down. What bums is we will most likely not see any comforting.... Dang I'm excited.. even though it seems to be very Sam-centric.. which I understand and can get into... that beat down will make it all worth while!

Wonder if they will finish it all.. or give us a cliffhanger.. since there's another season.. and finish it the first ep of next year.

[(Anonymous)]

I do think there is Ret-Conning going on and that certain things (i.e. the Righteous Man who began it must be the one to end it) are getting tossed out. But I'm not complaining... Well, maybe I am complaining... But it's not keeping me from enjoying the Show- how's that? I don't think they're sticking to the "Righteous Man" story line any more than they stuck to the Dean and ONLY Dean is Michael's true vessel... except when he decides to wear Young!John or Ghoul-Chow!Cremated!But Resurrected Whole!Adam to the Prom. I think stuff that got started in one episode that worked for that episode they're finding doesn't work for where they're headed and they drop it. It causes confusion and frustration for the viewers who are paying attention to such things of course... But it's not enough for me to throw in the towel. 'Cause the Show is still fun and chock full of Purty!
I'm more disappointed with how they've been handling Sam's character of late. He's got this potentially disasterous plan cooking in his freakish Cromagon skull and when people say 'That's Nuts!' he just gets kind of hangdog and says 'I know...' I actually miss defiant 'Don't tell me what to do! You're not the boss of me! I'm stronger and better than you!' Sam even though he was outrageous and WRONG... he at least had some spark and life to him. Now as they have it, Sam hardly speaks for himself and it's up to Dean or Bobby to decide if Sam's being good or bad (i.e. BOBBY: Oh, hey, I just noticed. Sometimes Sam actually helps people rather than just being a Demon Blood Sucking Powder Keg of Anger... hmmm)I liked it better when Sam had his own outspoken opinions about himself- even if they were very wrong.
But Crowley... beyond marvelous! I kinda hope he sticks around though he may well be out to Ruby them.
And remember that amulet? I bet it'll turn up again and be key... if not! BOO! Ret-Conning Show!
But next week...? eeek...
p.s. LEDERHOSEN

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

I did see the mangled eye!

Jensen talked a little bit about that scene at one of the recent cons. He was so cute trying not to spoil anything. But he talked about Sam and Dean getting in a "tussle," and that he (as an actor) couldn't see out of one eye. The context was how it's much more comfortable and easier for them to fight each other than to fight guest stars. He said that Jared gave him an indicator of when a punch from that side was coming so Jensen could have the proper reaction time. You know what I mean? Which he said a guest star wouldn't think to do.

But when he said he couldn't see out of one eye, I kinda went *gulp*.

And now I see what he was talking about. Because dude!

I don't think we're going to have a CLIFFHANGER so much as a bridge into next season. The clip I posted yesterday, Jensen talks about starting completely new stories next season, and that Kripke did stick to his (supposed) five-year plan. So I fully expect them to close out the Apocalypse storyline next week and leave it open for a new direction.

I also wouldn't be surprised if they turned Crowley into a recurring villain next season. Maybe. I dunno.

I hope Cas gets some of his angel mojo back.

And I really want to see an ep where Dean suffers a gypsy curse and loses his voice and all of Jensen's dialogue must be delivered via non-verbal means. If someone wants to put that request on a board that Sera or Ben might frequent, have at.

In conclusion: Is it next week yet?

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Well, as I said above, I'm willing to reserve judgment on the "righteous man" angle. I think Dean is going to be extremely key in the final resolution.

John was a temporary vessel (they even made a point of telling Dean that Dean was the "true" vessel), and Adam was bait, plain and simple. I don't think Michael had any intention of ever wearing Adam.

Lucifer, otoh, doesn't care about his vessels beyond how they can serve him.

I see what you're saying about Sam, but I disagree. I'm glad he's finally gotten a clue and figured out that his arrogance was counterproductive and self-destructive and Dean-destructive. Rather than telling everyone he's stronger and pitching a fit when they don't listen, he's showing them he's strong. And I'm thrilled that he's finally figured out what his attitude has done to Dean. Because that is a beef I've had with Sam for years.

As far as Bobby just now "noticing" Sam, how real and human is that? How many times have each of us been more inclined to see the faults in a loved one than, hey, they did all this other stuff right? Because we're up close and personal to the person in question, we see all of them, good and bad, and bad often gets more attention--which it shouldn't. So, no, I'm not gonna ride Bobby about that, I'm just gonna agree with him that yeah, you're right. Sam's not a kid anymore. Thanks for noticing.

Ya know?

I'm seriously hoping the amulet shows up again. I think Jensen hinted that it would at one of the cons. He pointed out that Sam had not left the room when the end credits rolled in that particular ep. (hint, hint, hint)

Next week? *flailityflailflailflail*

[(Anonymous)]

Well, Cas said that Michael's found another vessel and it was Adam- so I can only assume he's strutting down the boardwalk John Travolta style wearing a newly remodeled Adam meat suit.

And I'm not riding Bobby on noticing what Sam's up to - I'm more riding the writers for using other characters to point out what Sam is or isn't up to while Sam doesn't say a whole lot for himself (Sort of "telling instead of showing once removed" I suppose) When Sam did start to try and explain his motives and feelings- Crowley cut him off (marvelously, as Crowley does but still)

I just think there's a better way to go about in the storytelling esp. if this is all leading up to Sam having a big showdown with Lucifer and his own darkside. I think he should have had a stronger presence in the past couple episodes given where this all seems to be going rather than being this person doing things that other characters observe and comment on- does that make sense?

More 1st Person POV SAM rather than SAM from other POV in other words- since next week he's going to be talking with the man in the mirror or so it would seem... When he isn't busy pummeling the pretty out of Dean that is... Oh BOYS!
LEDERHOSEN

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

D'oh!!!! Forget everything I just said and deleted. I re-listened, and Cas did say Michael was wearing Adam. Which is still problematic, but problematic in a different way than I thought.

Also, Sam had the same complaint as you when they discovered that Michael could conceivably use Adam as a vessel. He didn't like that the angels were changing their story midstream (to mix a metaphor). So you and Sam are on the same wavelength in that regard.

I . . . think I see what you're saying about Sam acting and others talking about it . . . but I guess it doesn't twig me the way it does some people. Overall, I thought this was a splendidly suspenseful ep that left me flailing at the TV at pretty much every commercial break.

[(Anonymous)]

Ahh... got it.. I think...? 'Cause... well Zach had just told Michael to come on down and then Sam and Dean skedaddled out of the beautiful room leaving poor GhoulChow to face the warm glowing warming glow of... Lucifer...!?!? Not Michael? Even though it was Michael who was just at that moment sliding his way down the Angel Pole to the BatCave/Beautiful Room...? Nope apparently it was Lucifer... who still had Nick's Pocky Meat suit when he ganked Ganesh and Gabriel...?

Oh Show stop hurting my brain!

Gives up and focuses on the Pretty!! Because Pretty I can comprehend! I get you my Pretty... if not your gaping plot holes too! ;-)!

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

No, no. You're right. Apparently I'm overdosing on the awesome of the show and the convoluted of the mytharc at the same time.

Because, yeah, there was that pock-marked Nick!Lucifer in between, huh. (Oh, brain, you are so confused.)

And Cas did say Michael. See, this is why I re-watch before I do my long and rambly. Which I'm starting on right now.

*still need a facepalm icon*

[kalquessa.livejournal.com]

I was so hoping Death would be awesome and not at all like the other horsemen. Color me satisfied. And I continue to be amused by how loathsome Crowley is. This is how I always imagined working with a demon ought to be: unpredictable, unpleasant, and sometimes more trouble than it's worth.

Also, Team Free Will is made of awesome with awesomesauce on top.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

I am currently working on my long and rambly. I hope to have it up tonight or tomorrow.

Yes, Team Free Will FTW!