SPN - "Lucifer Rising"

[feliciakw]

. . . or, "Kim Manners, you are missed, Sir."

Okey dokey. I re-watched the ep for the first time this morning. Yes, it plays better in higher def widescreen. No, my opinion of the ep has not changed.



The Road So Far . . . "Carry On, Wayward Son." Still an excellent previouslies song. Didn't find it quite so stirring this time around as I did the first time around, when I about flailed off the couch.

St. Mary's Convent . . . Hey, that's the guy who used to be on First Wave. I never watched the show, but I remember him from the commercials. I think he might have done an appearance on Dark Angel as well, but I wouldn't swear to it (and I'm too lazy to go look it up right now).

YED monologuemonologuemonologue, slaughters nuns in a convent. *yawn* Kripke? Been there, done that. Remember Meg and Pastor Jim? Details were different, but it was much more effective that time around.

Also, I tend to agree with kalquessa that I prefer the yellow contact lenses to this CGI effect they're doing. But *shrug* whatever.

Btw, the whole evil monologue really bothers me, but then, it's supposed to, I'm sure. Because demons are evil.

Title flash. (I wonder what they'll do for a title flash next year.)

Okay, the start out fuzzy then bring into focus transition thing? I'm not overly impressed. It seems like it's trying to be cool. And in doing so, it's just . . . kinda awkward. But, whatever.

Sam. Oh, Sam. You've changed for good. You know Dean was right. Don't listen to Ruby. Let me give you a hug and make you cookies and hide you until after the deadline passes, huh?

This whole conversation between Bobby and Dean is just . . . awkward . . . from a writing standpoint. I'll agree wholeheartedly that Jensen can work miracles with awkward dialogue, can make the proverbial silk purse out of sow's ear, and he delivers here in spades. Because seriously. Awkward.

". . . he's your--"
"Blood? Is that what you're gonna say?" Um, Dean? When has Bobby ever defined family by blood? Or did Kripke forget one of the coolest lines from "No Rest"?

I will say (and I'll attribute this to Jensen's special dialogue-transforming powers) that I can totally understand where Dean's coming from with being tired of chasing after Sam, etc. And now that I think about it, I wonder if this is the scene Jensen was talking about when he made mention of the conceptual differences he and Kripke had about how Dean would play a scene. Hm . . .

Bobby's line about family makes me wonder what kind of a family he's from.

"I told him . . ." Gee, thanks, Kripke, for that anvilacious recap. We were there the first time. I can appreciate you're wanting to get latecomers caught up, but that particular line seems . . . awkward. Yeah?

"You are a better man than your daddy ever was." Okay, that's a line I can get behind. And no, I don't see it bashing John so much as pointing out to Dean (for the umpteen bajillionth time) that he's got worth and brains and for cryin' out loud, he knows better than to just let Sam go off and destroy himself.

Holodeck, and Cas is there . . . looking none too happy with the situation. He knows something's wrong.

"So we need to talk." Oh, Sam. I don't like where you're going, but I like the way Jared is playing it. Mm-hm.

Magically appearing burgers and beer. EL SOL!!! Yay continuity! (I also find it interesting that Dean has a taste for Mexican beer. It's interesting, you know, in a character detail kind of way.)

You know, I had reservations about Zach when he first showed up. But I thought, "Okay, let's see where this goes." But something . . . grated. And it didn't change, and it doesn't change here. The more I see of him, the less I like him. Which once again leaves Cas as the only celestial ally Dean has. And for a while, on the holodeck, Dean doesn't even have that, much to Cas's chagrin.

Riddle me this: Where the frell was the actress playing demon!nurse when they were reading for Ruby 2.0? Because this gal? Would have rocked. She brings the snark in spades and can turn into a confused, helpless, innocent victim via a believable transition. This woman could have played subtle. This woman could have played lovestruck *gag* if that's how they wanted to take it. More like manipulative with a side of petting fondness. This gal could have been scheming and manipulative and convincing. Alas, the opportunity is missed.

I love the message that Dean leaves on Sam's v-mail. *hugs Dean*

Okay, I must admit . . . Dean tipping over the angel figurine? Makes me chuckle every time. Then Cas shows up and Dean gets the "hand caught in the cookie jar" look. Oh, Dean.

The back and forth conversation between Dean and Cas is amusing, but really? It's at this point, I think, where Dean being trapped in the green room is really annoying from a storytelling POV. All dialogue and exposition. (Um, Mr. Kripke? Have you ever heard the maxim "Show, don't tell?" Yeah.)

I do love that Ruby is becoming more and more pushy and Sam becomes more and more vocally disagreeable with her in proportion. He becomes more disillusioned, and this is a good thing.

"I'm starting to think Dean was right . . . About everything." And the moral of this story is, "Listen to your big brother."

And here we are, at the big reveal. Now, I could go along with Zach having his own agenda. But his first reference to "senior management" tells me I'm really not going to like where they go with this. I cannot even express how much I don't like where they're going with this.

Now, the change from pastoral paintings to Dante-esque stuff is pretty cool. In an unpleasant doom and apocalypse kind of way.

Dean as Michael. If it were a fic, I would stop reading, but angel!fic (pre-angels in canon) is totally not my thing. But this is the story they're giving me, so I'll go with it. (I've always kind of liked Michael anyway, so Dean as a metaphorical Michael is pretty cool. I will say, however, that if Dean is actually possessed by Michael next season, I'd argue that they named the wrong episode "Jump the Shark").

And now we come to my least favorite line of the episode. "God has left the building." The way this reads to me is that a) God does not exist (it would take too long here to explain why I disengage when this is blatantly used as a storytelling device); or b) God doesn't care--which is equally repulsive. At this point, my instinct is to shut down, ignore Zach, watch strictly for the brother storyline, and disengage from the series. Indeed, Cas is once again the only angel worth investing in.

Now, if this is what I'm given to work with, and I have to continue the story myself, I would take it in the direction that Cas, through his faith in the goodness of his Father, is actually the one working in accordance to God's will. He's not working out of ego or pride (which Zach has in abundance), but he's actually paying attention and discerning what God wants. Bypassing his superiors and going to the source. But I don't give Kripke that much credit to do that.

In fact, it was Sera Gamble and Raelle Tucker who wrote the ep wherein we are first told that God has work for Dean to do: "Faith." And while that one set me on edge, by the end (and after a talk with izhilzha), I was totally behind the ep, and it's one of my faves.

So, yeah. At this point, they've pretty much lost me on any sort of meta level, because I just can't get excited about what they're doing here.

Though I will say that Dean looks really concerned that God isn't involved in this in any way. As angrily as Dean has expressed his doubts, his worrisome, pensive looks seems to indicate that deep down, where even he didn't want to admit it, he was counting on God carrying them through this. Which indicates faith on some level. *whispers to Dean: hold onto that. Don't listen to Zach.*

Nice creepy establishing shot of the convent.

I really wish they would have cast a child to play Lilith in this ep. It would have been problematic from a story POV to use the same blonde girl that they rescued last season, but still, it would have been so much creepier and less annoying from an acting standpoint to use a little girl, I think.

"You're outside your coverage zone." *snerk!* Oh, Cas. Your attempts at humor (that was a joke, right?) are very amusing. Hee!

Castiel's speech about the pain and suffering and "what's so worth saving?" . . . I . . . like? . . . maybe? . . . that they're giving Cas a crisis of faith. Not that they're giving an angel a crisis of faith. But if we look at Cas as representing believers (which, granted, is an analogy that only goes so far), this . . . is real. "Why? What's worth saving?" And Dean's got the answer: people. People are worth saving. (Because God created people and loves them, but we won't delve into that particular topic in this review, since Show seems kind of intent on ignoring that bit of information.) I like that Cas, through his association with Dean, has developed a sympathy with him, a compassion for him--and having had his eyes opened to the pain and suffering of humanity, he longs for people (read: Dean) to experience peace and forgiveness. This? This I can get behind.

But then we get Dean's response. And it just show how limited the writer's view of Heaven and peace is. There is no Stepford-ness to Heaven. People are not going to be turned into mindless drones. But that's a theological discussion that doesn't fit here. So . . .

If that shortsighted interpretation of Paradise is what we're given, then yes, I can see Dean's point as well. (See also: Star Trek V.) Because keeping your individuality, your freedom of choice, is preferable to being brainwashed by a cult, for example. (Which brings us back to discernment and understanding the source of your information and direction.)

"There is a right and a wrong here." Yes, Dean, I'm behind you on this, and in a really convoluted way (because this dialogue and storyline have taken a convoluted turn), you're getting there. Saving people is what's important. You know it. Castiel knows it.

Now, bearing in mind that Show is not a theology lesson or a Sunday school class, the above paragraphs fail to address the consequences of free will. Yes, there is free will, but there are also consequences that must be lived with (in some cases, eternally). But again, that particular topic seems to be outside the confines of this review.

Slap my mouth! Ruby changed the v-mail! SAM!!!! NOOO!!!! (This was the one point in the ep that actually got a big reaction from me.)

There are colors on the harp strings. Is that normal? Is that how the player knows which string is what note? Like the way keys are positioned on a keyboard?

Poor Dean. Left with nothing to do by pace and exposit.

Cas stops Dean from eating the burger? Is it like fairy food? Would he be stuck there forever or lose his free will or something if he ate the burger? Zach's a tricky one, he is.

Cas to the rescue! And apparently, Dean and Cas understand each other better than I realized, because with nary more than a look, the slightest nod, Dean lets Cas put a plan into action. Yay!

And Cas sheds blood to rescue Dean. Now that has some theological implications.

It's probably just me, but the fact that Zach uses "hell" as an idiom indicates to me that he is, in fact, not on the right side of this.

"Lilth is the final seal!" \o/ I figured it out! By myself! No spoilers or input from others! FYI, Kripke? If I can figure it out? You're getting lazy. Trust me when I say that I'm not the deepest thinker in the fandom, and my theories tend to be very shallow. So if I figured it out? Yeah. You need to up your game.

Chuck! Of course he knows where Sam is.

May I say that I love Sam's entrance?

Ookay. Not sure why the archangel showed up, since Chuck wasn't in any danger. But, whatever, I guess . . .

"I'll hold them all off!" And Cas zaps Dean to Sam's location. So we leave Cas fighting archangels . . . Huh.

I knew Ruby couldn't be trusted! I knew it. Demon with a heart of gold my left pinky toe!

Okay, the cuts back and forth from medium shot to close up of Sam? Awkward and distracting.

And from a distance, Sam hears Dean! Yes, Sammy! Dean came for you! Listen to him!

Pride: Sam's fatal flaw. I've been . . . taken to task? for getting on Sam about his pride. And I admit that I was surprised that someone jumped on me like they did (not rude or flaming, just very offended that I would have the nerve to call Sam out on it). Because I thought Sam's pride was pretty darn obvious. And here? Here's the scene wherein Sam's pride releases Lucifer from his prison. It's not Ruby's urging that pushes Sam to finish off Lilith. No, it's Lilith's mocking of Sam, appealing to his pride. She laughs at him. She says, "You turned yourself into a freak, a monster, and now you're not gonna bite. I'm sorry, but that is honestly adorable." She implies that he's a coward, that he can't get the job done, and to prove that he can . . . he does. His pride is his downfall.

Sam's eyes turn black. *yawn* Wait, Sam's eyes turn black? Sam's eyes turn black! Okay, so, does this mean he's now a demon? Or that he's so juiced up on the stuff that he reacts as a demon? I reallyreallyREALLY don't want him to be a demon. It's just . . . no. Not from a plotpoint level, not from a character development level, not from a storytelling level. It's just . . . too much. Though better black than yellow. I might have cringe-flailed or something.

Okay, Ruby quoting (or more accurately, paraphrasing) Martin Luther King? Awkward.

And Ruby has a pride issue herself. Indeed. But she lays all her cards on the table, and I was right from the very first time she showed herself to be a demon. Sam, honey, you knew. Never trust a demon. Ever. Everever. *shakes head sadly*

Dean knifes Ruby!!!! \o/ While Sam holds her still!!! \o/ Ding dong, the witch is dead! Cue the munchkins!

Sam's voice. "I'm sorry." So small and regretful and he knows he screwed up in the worst way possible in the history of ever. He lied to Dean, he hid things from Dean, he dismissed Dean, he walked out on Dean. He trusted a demon. Oh, boys. You have so much to work through next season.

Oh, hey. A hellmouth. How quaint.

And . . . that's it. I can live with that ending for a summer. Why? Probably partially because I'm starting to disengage from the show. There's only so much I can handwave before things start to get to me on a fundamental, feels-like-propaganda level. And this ep just about reached critical mass in that regard. Oh, I'll tune in next season, simply because I love the brothers. And depending on what they do with Cas, things might still be salvageable.

But overall? I'm not overly impressed. Way too much info-dumping in this episode. No surprises worthy of a season finale. I think you can only get away with semi-meets-Impala once, but still. Something unexpected would have been nice.

Speculation for next season: demon hunters will come after Sam. That's really the only prognostication I'm willing to make right now. Because anything else I come up with doesn't sit well with me from a storytelling point of view.

Have a grand summer! I'ma start watching my DVDs from the beginning tomorrow.

Comments

[mosinging1986.livejournal.com]

(Snuck in here via kalquessa's journal.)

There is no Stepford-ness to Heaven.

Oh, so that's what he said? I could not catch that for anything. Wow. That adds another level of UGH to me.

It's good to see other people are disturbed by what's going on in this show as I am! People are either done with me or think I'm crazy.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Dean's exactly line was:

". . . 'cause I'll take the pain and the guilt. I'll even take Sam as-is. It's a lot better than being some Stepford bitch in Paradise."

So . . . yeah . . . *sigh*

[mtee.livejournal.com]

I loved the ep.
God has left the building to me meant -- God has/had nothing to do with this - it was a smackdown between the angels and demons -- he actually wasn't a part of this -- someone mentioned that perhaps angels have free will as well? The only one that eventually did God's will was Cas -- doing the RIGHT thing.

Sam definitely has pride -- but I think it was Lilith using his trigger words that sprung him into actions. Notice the use of the word monster or freak in this show. It's always been a red flag to Sam. Dean called him that and he was choked -- Lilith uses it and she's killed. Because that is what Sam fears the most -- this is what scares him and he reacts violently when it's thrown in his face -- his fears confirmed kind of thing.

I don't think Sam is a demon -- if it was his own ability -without the need of blood - then that means he CAN control them -- and if anything can "sober" you up big time -- it's bringing Lucifer back! So I don't think Sam will be able to accidentally use powers - he would have to intentionally and consciously want to use them and believe he can. I believe Ruby when she said he had used it all up.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

God has/had nothing to do with this -

Oh, agreed. What bothers me is the implication of why. Because He's not there? Because He doesn't care? Because he's letting Zach and Co. hang themselves with their own rope? The line just . . . doesn't sit well with me.

someone mentioned that perhaps angels have free will as well

Yes, this is an inconsistency within the show. Of course angels have free will. Anna gave herself a grace-ectomy. That would require free will. Cas chose to start seeing Dean as more than component of fate. Cas chose to save Dean from Alistair. Uriel chose to murder angels in his garrison. The angels are exercising free will all over the place. We only have Anna's story that angels have no free will.

The only one that eventually did God's will was Cas -- doing the RIGHT thing.

And that's what I hope they make a point of demonstrating next season.

Re: Lilith and the trigger words . . . the trigger words and Sam's pride go hand in hand, I think. Because he can't stand people calling him "freak" and "monster." Yes, it plays into his fear, but Lilith was also laughing at him, belittling him, poking at that spot in his self-image where he's most vulnerable. What was Sam afraid of all his life? Being different. Which is a point of pride. I know that's simplifying his situation a lot, because demon blood and exorcising things with his brain and all, but at the core, I think his fear and his pride go hand in hand.

I'll have to cogitate on Ruby's "you never needed the blood" vis-a-vis YED's assertion that "demon blood is better than Ovaltine."

I've got no problem with Sam having used up all the demon mojo. However, I still think there will be hunters on his trail after this.

Hey, thanks for the input. If others can talk me down off the ledge this ep put me on, I'm good with that.

[kalquessa.livejournal.com]

The Stepford comment didn't really bother me because a lot of folks have that misconception of Heaven, and it does not shock me in the least to learn that Dean is one of them. *shrug* I guess if Show is saying Heaven actually is like Stepford my reaction would be split between "Um...no," and "Really? Sign me up for a gingham apron, then!" But my ability to take things in as inoffensive a light as possible seems to have intervened, because I didn't get that impression, here. Varying mileage, and all that, of course.

The aversion to having Sam accused of pride...baffles me. But then, a lot of folks seem to think that if you love a character, you must automatically think they are perfect in every way, and flail when they are accused of vice. Ths is not restricted to SPN fandom, either. Me, I like me some vice-ridden, broken characters (HAI WINCHESTERS!!) so count me in as one Samgirl who's totally on board with the pride thing. *waves flag*

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

RE: the Stepford comment . . . if it were just Dean's misconception, it might not bother me as much as it does, because Dean has a lot of common questions and misconceptions. But this is the second time the assertion has been made that Heaven removes personality and free will . . . reference Anna's description in "Heaven and Hell," another Kripke-written ep, I might point out. So twice in as many Kripke eps we've been told that being in Heaven equates with giving up your individuality and personality. First, Anna tells Dean this (which really bothered me); now Dean throws it at Cas. It ticks me off for a number of reasons I'm not even sure I could articulate.

I also find it highly amusing how our roles have reversed. IIRC, it was I who was talking you into how cool Castiel could be if they played the angel angle correctly. Now you're trying to talk me off the ledge. Hey. What are friends for, right?

[kalquessa.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'd forgotten about that thing in Heaven and Hell. Bleh, I hated that. Although I thought she was talking specifically about being an angel rather than being in Heaven in general. Which still really annoyed me, since it contradicts all kinds of canon. (Hi, Kripke. Do you ever...you know...watch this show?) So I wouldn't have made that connection, even if I'd remembered, because I didn't think she was talking about Heaven as Stepford. Of course, I could well be misinterpreting, or just remembering incorrectly since I did my best to forget almost everything about that ep (except Sam calling the Imapala "she" and Dean's shirtless back).

And yeah, the irony has not been lost on me. How the tables have turned.

S4 Premier:

ME: Gack! Angel! Gah! No! (But the wings were really cool!)

YOU: Calm down, it might be okay! It might be awesome, even! Look at all this meta. And lore, I have lore for you to look at! LOOK AT THE SHINY LORE!!

S4 Finale:

YOU: Gah! Godstuff! Kripke! No!

ME: It could still be okay! In fact, I will make it okay by sticking my fingers in my ears and singing Styx songs until Kripke goes away! SING WITH ME!!!

I think you're better at this than I am. Can we switch places again?

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

RE: your first paragraph . . . I'm extrapolating. Kripke wrote Anna as saying that angels were pretty, pretty, cold statues--or whatever her line was (except that she could give herself a spleen-ectomy--thus choosing to disobey . . . which means to obey is also a free will choice . . . which negates Anna's argument that there's no free will in Heaven). Then Kripke wrote Dean as choosing pain and guilt over a Stepford bitch in Paradise existence. And Cas says nothing to correct that perception. (Though I think Cas is still getting the hang of the discernment thing.) Both, in essence, are saying the same thing. Both are written by Kripke. If he has to pay attention to consistency, does it have to be that particular plot device?

[kalquessa.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think maybe Kripke just...doesn't pay attention. Or something. Because the way Cas talks about Heaven in "Rapture" is rather at odds with his mute acceptance of the Heaven-as-Stepford metaphor in this ep.

In conclusion: Whatever, Kripke! COME SAIL AWAY, COME SAIL AWAY, COME SAAAIL AWAAAAY WITH MEEEEEEE!!

[kimmer1227.livejournal.com]

I remember Dean's Stepford comment, but what were they specifically talking about. Was it when he was saying there'd be paradise on Earth, which was referring to Earth, not Heaven. I thought Dean was talking about "here" when he said I'll take Sam as is and guilt, etc. I'll have to watch when I get home.

ETA: I listened to it on the way home. You're right in the context of heaven. I was getting my scenes mixed up. I still understand Dean's frustration. Cas is saying let it happen, it's foretold, yada yada. You'll finally have peace in paradise. Dean is a human, living and breathing. He cares about people. Family. Yes, the Stepford comment was a bit strong (but very Dean), but I think I would have the same reaction if told I had to let my family and millions of people die, and I had the power to stop it, but it's okay, I'll have peace in paradise. With that attitude, why fight for anything. Soon we'll be dead and happy.

I don't know. This whole area is... I don't know.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Yes, coming from Dean, the line makes sense, which is why as a misconception coming from Dean, I could go along with it. Dean has said a lot of things I disagree with, but coming from Dean, they're completely understandable, and I actually get kind of excited because a lot of his questions and doubts are very real.

And I do see his point and agree with Dean that there is a right and a wrong and that people are what's important.

But the presentation, and the fact that this is the second time that Heaven/Paradise on Earth (which gets into a whole 'nother conversation of the New Earth as spoken of in the Bible) as an existence without individuality is problematic for me. It's the way Zach and Co. are going about making it happen that's the issue--forcing Armageddon with complete disregard for humanity. And the more than implication that God is absent from the equation.

I'm probably not being very coherent, I know. As I've said before, when I start talking about such things that are so important to me and carry such weighty implications in RL and do come down to some serious blacks and whites and rights and wrongs . . . It's difficult for me to articulate. I'm sorry if this doesn't make sense.

Thanks, though, for trying to talk me down off the ledge. I'm tickled that so many of my f-list have come forward to try to give me another viewpoint. What it comes down to, I guess, is that I don't trust Kripke to do the same.

[kimmer1227.livejournal.com]

We can talk about it this weekend. You're still planning on a drive-by, yes?

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Do we have a when and a where yet?

[kimmer1227.livejournal.com]

We're staying at a hotel near Union Station from Sat thru Monday. I think Carol is there til Tues. What day worked best for you?

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Right now, Saturday is looking the best, with maybe Monday as a second choice (though we've been invited to a cookout that I just found out about yesterday).

I see you guys are just a block or two from a metro stop, so that might be doable, maybe. I'll do a little more looking and see what I can figure out.

[kimmer1227.livejournal.com]

Try for Saturday, pleeez. I'm going back to Silver Spring Sunday night, and I think Deb has to work Monday.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Okey dokey. I'll aim for Saturday. That works better for me anyway. :-)

[kimmer1227.livejournal.com]

I'll PM you my cell number, and check with Carol about a good meet up place.

[izhilzha.livejournal.com]

Y'all are having a meetup? Cool! :)

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Yes. Tomorrow, Union Station. It'll be an adventure. *takes deep, calming breath*

[just-ruth.livejournal.com]

I'm hanging on to the idea that God has not left the building, but like in the book of Job, is standing back to test his creations and see if they can find their way to the "right" answer.

Because the alternative is that Kripke has pulled a Bill Maher sneer and jeer at everyone who has any faith at all. :( -- that would be my deal breaker.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Re: your comparison to the book of Job . . . this is something I could get behind and go along with. Actually, I like this idea. It remains to be seen whether or not they'll take that route. I'm . . . not overly confident.

Because the alternative is that Kripke has pulled a Bill Maher sneer and jeer at everyone who has any faith at all. :( -- that would be my deal breaker.

It's already been a deal breaker for one person on my flist. And Kripke is skating on kinda thin ice with me. But I'm not gonna fret about it all summer. Or at least not on my LJ.

I'm tickled that so many of my f-list have stepped forward to offer me alternative explanations. Y'all might not be doing it on purpose, but it is helping me see this in a more acceptable light. Thanks!

[leelust.livejournal.com]

Re: God's left the building. it's interesting that that remark made me think of opposite things that you. For it means that God do exist and he do care. Not going deep into theology i'd say God do exist by commanding to get Dean back from hell and by working through Cas and Anna (and her group). The same with his care. He cares but he doesn't have to choose for us he's teaching us (and humans and angels for that matter).
Zach is driven by his own pride and it can't be good thing (even if he thinks he's doing it for eternal paradise on earth). His mentioning of God as non-caring is a sign for me of how blind he is.

Re: Dean's comment of Stepford in heaven. Plus to all who said it's in Dean's character to talk like this i'd say that he was getting ready to fight against big evil through this season (even if he didn't know it'll be Luci) so for me his words are also an indication that he's ready to fight, he can't give up the world for peace and happiness in heaven even if he'd like that. That's why he sounds so harsh, he was mad on himself too. Also i think Dean didn't forgive himself for what he's done in hell and thinks he doesn't deserve heaven so he claims on pain because that's what he think he has to feel after all he's done.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

I love my f-list for giving me alternative ways of seeing some of this.

To me, the "God has left the building" means that God is not present in this situation. When someone says, "Elvis has left the building"--which is typically where this originated--it means that the person in question (Elvis) is no longer in the building literally, or that he's removed himself from the public by retreating to the green room or other private quarters, making himself inaccessible to his public. Thus "God has left the building" to me means that Zach is telling Dean that God is not there, is not accessible, and Dean can forget about seeking any sort of comfort or reassurance or aid or strength or whatever from God--in this, the Final Battle, Armageddon, during which Dean is expected to kill Lucifer.

I have a problem with Zach handing Dean that kind of hopelessness.

Or, if God is still around, still there, Zach speaks with such blatant disregard and lack of respect that it makes God look weak. Also not an agreeable option.

Re: the "Heaven as Stepford" comment . . . if it were just Dean saying it, I could go along with it as a misconception Dean has. We've talked about that over the course of the season, how Dean's questions and doubts are very real and expressed in a real and Dean-like manner. But it's not just Dean who's saying this. Anna said essentially the same thing. Both times a character has said this, it's been in episodes written by the same writer. The way it's presented here, it doesn't feel as much like a character trait as something the writer is saying. One of my f-list called it propaganda, and I understand where she's coming from.

Now, when Dean starts in on a "there's a right and there's a wrong here," and "people matter," I'm totally behind him on that score. And being willing to fight to stop the destruction of the world. Because Dean has always been about the saving people (except for the one time when he was drunk on grief and whiskey when Sam was dead, but those were extenuating circumstances). So in that regard, I'm right there with Dean.

So I'm willing to give Show a chance to explain itself next season, to show us that Cas is really the one doing God's will, or that God is testing the good guys, or whatever. But I'm not very confident that Kripke will go that route.

I've been burned by favorite shows in the past; I'm really not expecting anything different here. On the contrary, I'm kind of impressed that it's taken them four seasons to get to this point with me.

Thanks, though, for sharing your point of view. Having people to talk me down is a good thing, I think. :-)

[scionofgrace.livejournal.com]

Can't really add more...

Except to say that, yes, harps have colored strings to help harpists find the notes they're looking for.

[gatorpez.livejournal.com]

Hey! I'm just catching up on LJ, sorry to be jumping in here late.

I agree with you that the Bobby scene was awkwardly written, and, frankly, to me, what Bobby was saying to Dean didn't make a lot of sense especially coming from Bobby. Some things that I didn't like/found odd:

(1) Bobby knows that Dean, of all people, knows that family can make you miserable. Bobby knows the Winchester dynamics and history, so him saying that to Dean does not make any sense to me.
(2) This is the second time someone says "boo hoo" to Dean in the last half of Season 4. I don't think we've ever heard that used before, but in last 7 episodes it's said twice to Dean, once from Sam under the influence of a siren and then this last time by Bobby.
(3) I don't think Dean has been whining, considering that he's only talked about Hell, etc. at the end of a couple of episodes and only for a few minutes, so to hear Bobby call Dean whiny, makes me think of Zach's "motivating" (*cough BS cough*) speech in "Life is Terrible".
(4) Does Bobby know that Sam tried to strangle Dean? I hope not, because that really makes this speech awkward to me.
(5) In 4.21, Bobby is the one that advocated letting Sam go so that he could go after Lilith, and basically the consequences to Sam be damned. But now Bobby is upset with Dean for not going after Sam to stop him?

[i]I will say (and I'll attribute this to Jensen's special dialogue-transforming powers) that I can totally understand where Dean's coming from with being tired of chasing after Sam, etc. And now that I think about it, I wonder if this is the scene Jensen was talking about when he made mention of the conceptual differences he and Kripke had about how Dean would play a scene.[/i]

I agree that Jensen made this scene more bearable, he was able to transform/mitigate some of the dialogue with his delivery, facial expressions and body language (Jensen had Dean so weary in this scene).

I do think that the Dean-Bobby scene is where Jensen thought Dean would be angry and Kripke wanted Dean more emotional. After Sam lying to Dean, choosing a demon and strangling Dean, I do think Dean would be angry (and he has every right to be).

I will say this, though, about this scene: I liked it when Dean said he was tired chasing after Sam, that's been such a consistent theme, especially in Season 2, and I'm glad Dean finally said something. I also liked the last thing Bobby said, that Dean is a better man than John. Yes, yes, he is.

On the one hand, I really liked Dean's choosing humans and the human life speech, Dean was so strong in his convictions (again, I think Jensen was fantastic in this scene), but, on the other hand, what did Kripke mean for that scene to mean with regard to angels?

I think Kripke will have to walk a fine line in Season 5 regarding his portrayal of angels and God. The U.S. may be made up of people that are all different religions, atheists, etc., but I think the majority are Christian and I wonder how receptive viewers are going to be if God is absent or wanted the apopcalypse? I think Kripke is dangerously close to crossing that fine line by having the angels be gray/unfeeling/hating on humans. I know this is a TV show, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are a lot of people who don't want to watch a show that goes against their beliefs or is so depressing about it's stance on a Higher Power. (If I want to be depressed, I can watch the news. *g*)

Even though Dean/Jensen didn't have a lot of action in this episode, I thought the back-and-forth delivery of lines between Jensen and Misha were great and between Jensen and Kurt Fuller were great. There weren't many pauses in some of the dialogue in some of the scenes, it was very quick.

I know this is sort of blasphemy, but I hope Season 5 is the last season. Season 4 started off so well, then Kripke ended up having to slow the storyline down when he figured out the show was getting renewed, so I'm afraid of what Season 5 and Season 6 would be like if he really had to stretch the storyline out.

[kimmer1227.livejournal.com]

Did you see this interview with Sera Gamble? Kinda interesting. There's one question at the end that mentions S5, but it's nothing really spoilery.

http://io9.com/5265112/is-supernatural-for-atheists