I know, right! I want to post my reaction, but my brain won't settled down long enough. Just a bunch of thinky thoughts and flailing and more flailing and thinky thoughts. And lots and lots of TLC for Dean. Oh, Dean.
Oh, yeah, bring on the thinky thoughts, Show. My brain will not wrap around you right now.
And Sam. Oh, Sam. I'm going to say some things when I do my review that will sound completely contradictory to what I've been saying for weeks, but really, they're not. But, oh, Sam. DON'T!!!! Just . . . DON'T!!!
But what about Jensen? If you can't talk about the information in the episode(because I'm still having trouble doing that), let's talk about Jensen. :) That man is brilliant. You could just see him dying inside and when Alastair hit him with being the first seal - you could see him break. Holy cow. And he sounded like someone who had been choked almost to death too, in the final scene. Geez, how does he do this stuff?
Unfortunately, it was difficult for me to see through the lo-res, full screen presentation I was watching. (Meaning, I could not fully appreciate the performance because I couldn't fully see the performance clearly.) But Dean, with the dead inside attitude and the heartbreak of learning about Dad (which I've been saying for weeks--nay, months) and the first seal and you have to stop this whole thing and . . . you don't even know the worst about Sam, dude. There's a reason he hasn't told you everything. It's just . . .
. . . It's gonna get worse before it gets better.
But this whole ep? Is why I've been kind of a wee bit concerned for Jensen's well being. I know that probably sounds weird and unnecessary. He's a professional, and he has friends and family who support him and he gives every indication of enjoying his work environment. But having to play stuff this heavy on an on-going basis has got to weigh on a person, and I just . . . Jensen? Take care of yourself, dude.
Oh, and his voice during that last conversation with Cas. Yeah, wow. I just . . . Jensen is awesome. Full stop.
I know I've got a regular old TV set too, makes it difficult sometimes.
You believed Alastair about John? I don't. John was free to get out of the gate, the only way he'd be loose is if either John was not a righteous man(and I don't actually think he was, not saying he was evil but I don't think he was righteous, he spent most of his life focused on revenge and he put it even before the well being of his sons) and so they really weren't that interested in him anyway or if John broke and was let down off the rack(and thus also was not the righteous man because obviously the Seals didn't start breaking then).
The demons were willing to trade John for Dean in Crossroad Blues which was only a few months after John's death - why would they waste the couple decades worth of work they'd already done on him to start over again?
So I don't believe Alastair about John. Alastair was THE master torturer, he was setting Dean up for the "breaking the first seal" reveal, Dean wasn't only torturing him, he was torturing Dean.
Actually, yeah, I believe what we were told about John in this ep. Partly because I've been saying for months that it would kill Dean to realize that he broke when his father didn't. And I believe the scenario as it was presented to us in AHBL2: John fought his way out of the gate, allowed for Dean to kill YED, said good-bye to his boys, and disappeared in sparkly white light. Unless they do some major ret-conning, I'm gonna go with my original interpretation.
You make a good point with CRB, and if they bring that up and go there, I'm game. But I really don't think the writers are going to do that (heck, they can't even remember that Castiel has already expressed doubt prior to this ep--which was less than a season ago). The first time I saw CRB, I completely. Freaked. Out. That Dean would even consider such a deal? Terrifying. That he would take a demon at its word that the John he would get back was his father? Horrifying. There would have been all sorts of strings attached, and I would not expect the John that was returned to be John as the Boys knew him, even if the demon said he would be.
I was in a complete panic (just ask Izhi *g*) that Dean would even go there.
I do agree with you, though, that Alistair was torturing Dean just as much as the other way around. Absolutely. And even if he was lying, the best lies hold partial truths. Good riddance to him.
So yep, I believe what we were told about John. But if it later comes about that something else went down, I'm okay with that, too.
Part of the reason I missed out on Jensen's performance was that I was distracted by the color correction as it appeared on our TV, which really accentuated the tired eye make-up. I sat there kinda thinking, "Wow. They went a little heavy on the eye shadow, didn't they? And there's the smudged liner again." I guess that's one of the hazards of being too interested in costuming and make-up as well as acting.
Plus, you know. Jensen rocks. It's pretty much a given. *g*
But how could John fight his way out of the gate if he was on the rack? If he was being tortured and they were trying to break him, he wasn't walking around, he was chained(and remember what Dean's chains were like in Hell's Waiting Room, I'd imagine they are much worse once you get down into Hell Proper). I don't believe John could have escaped if he'd truly been in Dean's position all those years.
So the only thing I believe Alastair about with regards to John is that he was down there, Alastair probably did torture him at some point and that John did not break the seal. I don't believe that John was tortured as completely as Dean was and I don't believe John ever could have broken the seal because I don't think he was a righteous man.
Honestly? I don't think the writers have taken John too much into consideration. Because if he broke? He was on his way to being a demon. And if he was on his way to being a demon, and not rescued like Dean was, how did he leave in the shiny light, thus implying Heaven?
Also, with the undoubted uproar in Hell over a gate being opened and demons doing their best to escape, anything could happen. There is fic to be had, no doubt.
At the point in time when John escaped Hell, I don't think the writers had thought as far ahead as we've gotten. I don't think they had any concept of how they were going to depict Hell. They didn't know that Dean was going to be on a rack. Neither do we know whether or not all souls end up on a rack, or whether or not all souls end up on a rack all the time.
I could be wrong, and if they tell me otherwise, I'll go with the story they tell. But right now, I don't see how a demon in training could have "gone into the light."
I honestly don't think, at this point, John's story matters one way or the other. What does matter is that Dean believes he fell short of his father's expectations, and that Dean was the one who broke the seal.
Actually, upon further reflection, I think for Dean's sake I'd like it if we learn precisely what happened with John. But honestly? I don't think the writers are going to give us the satisfaction.
I don't believe that John was tortured as completely as Dean was and I don't believe John ever could have broken the seal because I don't think he was a righteous man.
Wow, I really disagree with you. If only because, honestly? Show is clearly using a less stringent idea of "righteous," here; Dean himself is a liar, a conman, a womanizer.
Now, clearly part of our disagreement here comes from the fact that you seem to consider John a bad man and a bad father. He made some mistakes (as all fathers do), but I consider him overall a decent man and a father who did a great job considering the circumstances they were forced into.
If the angels can call Dean righteous, I see no reason why that shouldn't be applied to John as well.
Also, re: John escaping from hell: I figure hell was thrown into an uproar when the devil's gate was opened. All kinds of demons got out, including the Seven who hadn't been topside for centuries; I think it's entirely possible that John got free in the uproar, or, perhaps, was set free by some rival of Yellow Eyes (Alistair himself, maybe, if he hadn't been able to break him by then?).
I'm thinking that the part about John being the one who was supposed to break the seal was the lie. Whether or not he broke wouldn't matter if he wasn't the one they wanted to break the seal.
So it's entirely possible that John didn't break (I'm still gonna go with that), but that he wasn't the one intended to break the seal anyway.
Does that make sense?
Of course, I'll be kind of interested to see how all this ties together with the S1 and S2, particularly how YED fits into all of this.
I think I spent the entire episode on the edge of tears and with a frown on my face. Oh my gosh. So sad and upsetting and someonesmacksamupsidetheheadandtellhimtostopbeingsuchapridefulidiotalready!
I'm going to have some things to say about Sam which I'm sure some will find mildly interesting in light of what I've been saying for weeks. But I want to watch my hi-res first, when it comes.
*hugs Dean, bundles him in fuzzy blankets, gives him cookies, sits down to read about Moses and Jonah with him*
I am very disturbed. What the heck is he doing? Crazy man. Then again I'm sure this started while he was all freaked about Dean being in hell and he just got... used to it/liked the power feeling? Oi.
Ruby has become in my mind a little like Drusilla or... Darla from Buffy what with the evil seductress (it's all for GOOD when really it's not) thing she's got going.
I've been saying for weeks that this whole thing was an addiction for Sam. Little did I know how right I was. *guh*
I've complained about Ruby/Genevieve this season, and I still miss Kate Cassidy, but if they can actually pull off what I've suspected they're trying to pull off, I think I will cheer. Genevieve still kind of annoys me, as I don't think her acting choices are reading the way she thinks they're reading (per an interview I read), but they seem to be taking it in the direction I've been seeing it as (seductress for an evil purpose, as you say), so we shall see if everyone can make it happen.
I asked my husband (who is a casual fan) if he saw the ep -- He was working in the den and he just gave this awed nod - he was impressed.
Dean -- broken by the demons and the angels!! It's just too much. He knows, truly knows that Sam doesn't need him - that he truly is a failure (in his eyes)-- his father lasted longer, he is the first seal and NOW he has to save the world???
You knew those shoulders (sigh) could only handle so much. He's just a man and his limits have been reached. He has to feel that it just keeps coming and coming and coming and coming -- with no let up.
SAM---------------- wow -- you drank that blood like an addict needing his fix! Ruby--- nasty nasty look. If they don't make her evil or with a plan - then she blew that scene. You can't see that scene and NOT think something's up with her. He's under her spell. Dang, was she petting his hair?!!!
He's so powerful Cass is wonderful -- Uriel - we will miss you, you evil angel.
Dean . . . If I didn't know better, I'd say he actually does have a personal guardian angel now, after all this.
First seal breaker has to save the world . . . no pressure, dude. (Btw, you've got an entire army of fan!girls at your disposal should you need comfort and care and encouragement, etc.)
Sam . . . Oh, Sam. Where do I begin? Yes, he's an addict. I've been saying that for months. But I had . . . no idea . . . (I also imagine that the vampire!Sam portion of the fandom is thrilled to some extent with this reveal.) Sam makes my brain hurt, he does.
Ruby . . . yes, she was petting his hair. Like . . . I don't know what . . . love-struck my left foot. She's up to something e. vil. And I'm gonna have to rethink my stance on Gen Cortese. Maybe. She's still not quite up to par with the rest of the cast, but I'm optimistic that she could get there eventually. (Still, I'd kinda like to see Kate Cassidy playing this Ruby.)
Cas . . . How much do I love you? So very, very much.
Jensen rocks. That is all.
Still waiting for the hi-res from iTunes. I can't wait to get started on this one, even though just the thought of it makes my brain hurt.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
no subject
Also, lots of Sam NO!
no subject
And Sam. Oh, Sam. I'm going to say some things when I do my review that will sound completely contradictory to what I've been saying for weeks, but really, they're not. But, oh, Sam. DON'T!!!! Just . . . DON'T!!!
no subject
no subject
*hugs Dean, just because*
no subject
no subject
Unfortunately, it was difficult for me to see through the lo-res, full screen presentation I was watching. (Meaning, I could not fully appreciate the performance because I couldn't fully see the performance clearly.) But Dean, with the dead inside attitude and the heartbreak of learning about Dad (which I've been saying for weeks--nay, months) and the first seal and you have to stop this whole thing and . . . you don't even know the worst about Sam, dude. There's a reason he hasn't told you everything. It's just . . .
. . . It's gonna get worse before it gets better.
But this whole ep? Is why I've been kind of a wee bit concerned for Jensen's well being. I know that probably sounds weird and unnecessary. He's a professional, and he has friends and family who support him and he gives every indication of enjoying his work environment. But having to play stuff this heavy on an on-going basis has got to weigh on a person, and I just . . . Jensen? Take care of yourself, dude.
Oh, and his voice during that last conversation with Cas. Yeah, wow. I just . . . Jensen is awesome. Full stop.
no subject
I so hope someone asks him a question about how he's dealing with the weight on his character. I'm fairly confident in his support system, but still.
I can't believe Edlund wrote this one. Is this his first heavy drama ep? He knocked it out the frickin' park, in my opinion.
no subject
no subject
You believed Alastair about John? I don't. John was free to get out of the gate, the only way he'd be loose is if either John was not a righteous man(and I don't actually think he was, not saying he was evil but I don't think he was righteous, he spent most of his life focused on revenge and he put it even before the well being of his sons) and so they really weren't that interested in him anyway or if John broke and was let down off the rack(and thus also was not the righteous man because obviously the Seals didn't start breaking then).
The demons were willing to trade John for Dean in Crossroad Blues which was only a few months after John's death - why would they waste the couple decades worth of work they'd already done on him to start over again?
So I don't believe Alastair about John. Alastair was THE master torturer, he was setting Dean up for the "breaking the first seal" reveal, Dean wasn't only torturing him, he was torturing Dean.
no subject
You make a good point with CRB, and if they bring that up and go there, I'm game. But I really don't think the writers are going to do that (heck, they can't even remember that Castiel has already expressed doubt prior to this ep--which was less than a season ago). The first time I saw CRB, I completely. Freaked. Out. That Dean would even consider such a deal? Terrifying. That he would take a demon at its word that the John he would get back was his father? Horrifying. There would have been all sorts of strings attached, and I would not expect the John that was returned to be John as the Boys knew him, even if the demon said he would be.
I was in a complete panic (just ask Izhi *g*) that Dean would even go there.
I do agree with you, though, that Alistair was torturing Dean just as much as the other way around. Absolutely. And even if he was lying, the best lies hold partial truths. Good riddance to him.
So yep, I believe what we were told about John. But if it later comes about that something else went down, I'm okay with that, too.
Part of the reason I missed out on Jensen's performance was that I was distracted by the color correction as it appeared on our TV, which really accentuated the tired eye make-up. I sat there kinda thinking, "Wow. They went a little heavy on the eye shadow, didn't they? And there's the smudged liner again." I guess that's one of the hazards of being too interested in costuming and make-up as well as acting.
Plus, you know. Jensen rocks. It's pretty much a given. *g*
no subject
So the only thing I believe Alastair about with regards to John is that he was down there, Alastair probably did torture him at some point and that John did not break the seal. I don't believe that John was tortured as completely as Dean was and I don't believe John ever could have broken the seal because I don't think he was a righteous man.
no subject
Also, with the undoubted uproar in Hell over a gate being opened and demons doing their best to escape, anything could happen. There is fic to be had, no doubt.
At the point in time when John escaped Hell, I don't think the writers had thought as far ahead as we've gotten. I don't think they had any concept of how they were going to depict Hell. They didn't know that Dean was going to be on a rack. Neither do we know whether or not all souls end up on a rack, or whether or not all souls end up on a rack all the time.
I could be wrong, and if they tell me otherwise, I'll go with the story they tell. But right now, I don't see how a demon in training could have "gone into the light."
I honestly don't think, at this point, John's story matters one way or the other. What does matter is that Dean believes he fell short of his father's expectations, and that Dean was the one who broke the seal.
Actually, upon further reflection, I think for Dean's sake I'd like it if we learn precisely what happened with John. But honestly? I don't think the writers are going to give us the satisfaction.
no subject
Wow, I really disagree with you. If only because, honestly? Show is clearly using a less stringent idea of "righteous," here; Dean himself is a liar, a conman, a womanizer.
Now, clearly part of our disagreement here comes from the fact that you seem to consider John a bad man and a bad father. He made some mistakes (as all fathers do), but I consider him overall a decent man and a father who did a great job considering the circumstances they were forced into.
If the angels can call Dean righteous, I see no reason why that shouldn't be applied to John as well.
Also, re: John escaping from hell: I figure hell was thrown into an uproar when the devil's gate was opened. All kinds of demons got out, including the Seven who hadn't been topside for centuries; I think it's entirely possible that John got free in the uproar, or, perhaps, was set free by some rival of Yellow Eyes (Alistair himself, maybe, if he hadn't been able to break him by then?).
Speculating is fun. *g*
More thinky . . .
So it's entirely possible that John didn't break (I'm still gonna go with that), but that he wasn't the one intended to break the seal anyway.
Does that make sense?
Of course, I'll be kind of interested to see how all this ties together with the S1 and S2, particularly how YED fits into all of this.
no subject
OMG, Jensen. With the dead-eyed, flat look as he's working Alistair over.... *shudder*
We must discuss tomorrow, for certain.
♥ Castiel
no subject
Jensen is a brilliant actor.
I think I spent the entire episode on the edge of tears and with a frown on my face. Oh my gosh. So sad and upsetting and someonesmacksamupsidetheheadandtellhimtostopbeingsuchapridefulidiotalready!
*hugsDeanSOtight*
no subject
*hugs Dean, bundles him in fuzzy blankets, gives him cookies, sits down to read about Moses and Jonah with him*
no subject
I'll be interested to read your Sam thoughts.
no subject
Jensen rocked, as always.
♥ Castiel with you.
no subject
(still watching, back to it. GAH!)
no subject
But it should make the vamp!Sam portion of the fandom happy.
And it gives me a whole new perspective of Ruby. *shudder*
no subject
Ruby has become in my mind a little like Drusilla or... Darla from Buffy what with the evil seductress (it's all for GOOD when really it's not) thing she's got going.
no subject
I've complained about Ruby/Genevieve this season, and I still miss Kate Cassidy, but if they can actually pull off what I've suspected they're trying to pull off, I think I will cheer. Genevieve still kind of annoys me, as I don't think her acting choices are reading the way she thinks they're reading (per an interview I read), but they seem to be taking it in the direction I've been seeing it as (seductress for an evil purpose, as you say), so we shall see if everyone can make it happen.
no subject
Dean -- broken by the demons and the angels!!
It's just too much. He knows, truly knows that Sam doesn't need him - that he truly is a failure (in his eyes)-- his father lasted longer, he is the first seal and NOW he has to save the world???
You knew those shoulders (sigh) could only handle so much. He's just a man and his limits have been reached. He has to feel that it just keeps coming and coming and coming and coming -- with no let up.
SAM---------------- wow -- you drank that blood like an addict needing his fix! Ruby--- nasty nasty look. If they don't make her evil or with a plan - then she blew that scene. You can't see that scene and NOT think something's up with her. He's under her spell. Dang, was she petting his hair?!!!
He's so powerful
Cass is wonderful -- Uriel - we will miss you, you evil angel.
The most powerful ep yet, I think.
no subject
First seal breaker has to save the world . . . no pressure, dude. (Btw, you've got an entire army of fan!girls at your disposal should you need comfort and care and encouragement, etc.)
Sam . . . Oh, Sam. Where do I begin? Yes, he's an addict. I've been saying that for months. But I had . . . no idea . . . (I also imagine that the vampire!Sam portion of the fandom is thrilled to some extent with this reveal.) Sam makes my brain hurt, he does.
Ruby . . . yes, she was petting his hair. Like . . . I don't know what . . . love-struck my left foot. She's up to something e. vil. And I'm gonna have to rethink my stance on Gen Cortese. Maybe. She's still not quite up to par with the rest of the cast, but I'm optimistic that she could get there eventually. (Still, I'd kinda like to see Kate Cassidy playing this Ruby.)
Cas . . . How much do I love you? So very, very much.
Jensen rocks. That is all.
Still waiting for the hi-res from iTunes. I can't wait to get started on this one, even though just the thought of it makes my brain hurt.