S3 or S4 (Now with ETA)

[feliciakw]

I've seen a lot of discussion about how the flashback in last night's ep was post-Hell S4 Dean. Interestingly, that's not really what I got from the clues, and I was really trying to figure out when this took place.

1. They didn't use Ruby's knife. Tracking the chain of custody on the knife is like playing a shell game sometimes, but in S4, I thought it was in Sam and Dean's possession for most, if not all, of the season. Surely if it were S4, they'd have been using Ruby's knife to question the demon?

2. They were looking for Lilith. Together. In S4, Sam did his Lilith-hunting with Ruby. In fact, iirc, that was on if the points of conflict between the brothers--how Sam was very gung-ho on facing Lilith, and Dean wanted to go in smart and have a plan first.

3. Dean didn't want to revisit what he'd done in Hell. He hated himself for turning torturer. When told by Cas and Uriel that he had to torture Alistair, Dean told Cas, "If I go in there, you are not gonna like what comes back out."

4. While the things Dean was doing were brutal and horrific and very "torture master," we've never really gotten any indication that physical hurt to the host causes any true or lasting pain to the demon. Holy water, salt, Ruby's knife, exorcisms--those cause pain to the demon. Physical abuse, not so much. Meg threatened to bite off Sam's tongue in BUaBS. All of the physical torture Dean inflicted on Alistair did nothing to the demon, because things are "too concrete" topside. In fact, with all the terrible ways Dean was beating the guy up, I kept wondering what else they could do to the demon, and where was the salt, because the physical abuse wasn't going to do anything to the demon (unless it was done with Ruby's knife, which they didn't have).

Otoh, Dean was being pretty ruthless--though I thought Dean explaining to the host what he was going to have to do was interesting--and I can see how we would be inclined to peg it as post-Hell Dean.

It just . . . I don't know . . . I think it could go either way. I wonder if this was discussed between the actors and the director or the actors and the writer.

Taking into account that missing year is also dicy. I can see where Edlund would factor it in, but in S6, they were rather inconsistent in acknowledging it (a calendar that read 2010, which should technically have read 2011).

All in all, a really disturbing scene, but hard to peg timeline-wise. Pre-Hell Dean might not be that brutal, but post-Hell Dean was not that eager or comfortable with himself in that regard.

Hm . . .

ETA: Jim Michaels has confirmed via Twitter that the flashback took place during S3, as Baby has her searchlights. *wistful sigh* The last time we saw the searchlights was, apparently, "Malleus Maleficarum."

I'm delighted to know my observations were correct. Several people had me thinking I was losing it.

Comments

[ann-tara.livejournal.com]

I think the whole thing is a mess. It looks to me like they're trying to mash up behavior and incidents from S3/4 into a whole new AU season. Four years ago is S4 just by virtue of the time. I know the writers don't care about the lost year Dean spent with Ben and Lisa, but if you don't pretend that didn't happen and add it in, it's S4.

But, no, Dean and Sam weren't on board with hunting Lilith in S4 - however, the previouslies include a scene from Yellow Fever. That's S4. The entire torture set up is straight out of OTHoaP - and Dean would not have been so cool with torturing from what we saw in that episode. He wouldn't have been that cool with it in S3.

Nothing about this timeline works for me.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Since this was an Edlund ep, and Edlund is, I guess, a supporter of "don't over-think it too much," we're over-thinking it.

Jim Michaels has confirmed that this is a S3 flashback ( \o/ I have to take my victories where I can *g*). Baby has her spotlights. *wistful sigh*

Honestly, though, it being a S3 flashback makes more sense to me than it being a S4 flashback.

[ann-tara.livejournal.com]

So the year Dean spent with Lisa and Ben didn't happen. Super.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

Wibbly wobbly timey wimey (if you're a Dr. Who fan).

Not gonna sweat it too much. It's a S3 flashback, the year with Lisa and Ben did happen (unless you're Lisa and Ben, in which case you have no recollection of it), and the calendar in "You Can't Handle the Truth" read October 2010.

Ya just gotta toss up your hands and move on, I guess.

:-)

Also, is that Steve in your icon?

[ann-tara.livejournal.com]

Also, is that Steve in your icon?

It is indeed. ;)

Yeah, I don't know why I was trying to actually make sense out of this show - I normally don't anymore. I won't make that mistake again.

[feliciakw.livejournal.com]

And now the producers are backpedalling on that.

Jim Michaels didn't join the show until S5, and Todd something-or-other is pointing to Dean's torture technique as placing it in S4.

Basically, the producers are as confused as we are. \o/

[ann-tara.livejournal.com]

Jim Michaels didn't join the show until S5, and Todd something-or-other is pointing to Dean's torture technique as placing it in S4.

Justified!!!! ;)

Yeah, bottom line is they thoroughly screwed up, both in editing the previouslies by including a S4 scene, which had to place the incident in or after that timeline, not to mention the torture technique is nothing we ever saw in S3. And then there's the little problem with basic arithmetic - unless they're trying to tell fans that season six never happened, in which case I'm good with that. LOL!

Personally I've been referring to it as AU season Thour to cover all bases. ;)