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Okay, folks . . .
My inner spoilerphobe is twitching, spasming, nay, writhing in agony from having just heard too many details of the beginning of S6 for her proper health.
The problem?
The spoilers were in an interview with Jensen Ackles. How can I not at least attempt to watch a vid interview with that man?
The tidbits he revealed make me want to weep--yes, weep--that the new season doesn't start until September 24. He says he's "as watering at the mouth as anybody else is" for the new season. And yes, that's exactly where I'm at right now. My mouth is watering in anticipation of the new season.
Hopefully our B:UtRH disc will arrive tomorrow and help me get my mind off of it.
And I just put the newest Hiaasen book on reserve at the library. (It's on order and I'm apparently 5th in line for it. It would probably be quicker if I got it elsewhere.)
And ack! The new SPN tie-in novel won't be released until August 31. Oy.
I gotta figure something out, or I'ma go stir crazy.
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What's making me excited is the stuff that Jensen said in a press interview that makes me very, very eager to see how things are going to play out.
It's a year later. He has a girl, and a "son," a job, and a pick-up truck. The Impala is under a tarp in the garage like any other hobby classic car. *gasp* I about had a coronary when he said that. (That's something I consider a spoiler, because that's something I'd like to experience emotionally and viscerally as it airs. It would have been a slap-my-hand-over-my-mouth moment. To have the Impala under a tarp in the garage is just . . . kinda heartbreaking. And I won't even get into what it says metaphorically about Dean. I don't usually think of the Impala in a metaphorical sense, though the parallel is definitely there.)
I started skipping through the interview at that point, and caught a little bit about what he said about Sam . . . that Sam tries to stay away from his brother. That Sam wants his brother to have a normal life. But he also wants his brother at his back during the hunt. (Sound familiar? Total role reversal. It will be interesting.) I'm sure I could have figured that out for myself, but I want to see how it plays out rather than be told how it's going to play out.
Jensen said several times that they're getting back to the MotW formula of first and second season, with a thread of story line connecting the episodes, like in S1 and S2. He started listing some of the monsters that are lined up, but again, I don't want to know until they actually show up. He's excited to get back to the traditional formula, because he makes no secret that that's what he prefers.
I know that it's his job to promote his show and the upcoming season, and he wouldn't say anything seriously negative about it; that would be unprofessional. But I honestly think that he is excited about it because he's getting to explore a part of Dean that's never really been plumbed before. It's new ground for him (and everyone) with a new head writer and a new direction that's a return to the old ways. That's exciting to me. I'm eager to see what they do with it.
And as for Sam . . . based on what little I've heard Jared say and what Jensen said, I think (I hope) that they'll be exploring some inner conflict there, too. Sam wants his brother to have a normal life, but he needs him on the hunt. He's pragmatic about things, thinking in collateral damage and the greater good rather than individual loss. It sounds like we're going to see a version of the Sam we got during those six months of Mystery Spot, and the Sam we got in JiB, who would seriously consider sacrificing a virgin to save 30 people. I'm eager to see how it plays out.
In one of Kripke's interviews, talking about the bare outline of his original plan, his plan was always to have something dark in Sam that pulled at him and called to him, and to have Dean save him. That story has played out, essentially as originally planned. Now we're into a new chapter, a "sequel" it's being called, to that story. The brothers are in the reversed roles of what they were at the beginning of the story. I'm very eager to see how it plays out--just the brothers and their allies--without TEH BIG EPIC of the Apocalypse.
Saving people, hunting things: The family business.
That's what I'm excited about. :-)
That, and having new Jensen work available to enjoy.
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So I'm okay with the way Jensen describes events, and I really hope his version of events is the one that plays out. I'm perfectly okay with where Dean is at in the beginning. I'd say right now that's the thing that interests me the most - or, rather, the only thing that interests me right now - watching Dean try and have a normal life, and not wanting to be pulled back into hunting.
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I've never made predictions on the future careers of people, but here's my predictions for SPN folk:
Jensen: will have a long and varied career that includes acting, directing, possibly producing, and a personal hope: writing. (I would love to see what kind of story Jensen would write for production--any production.) He's very versatile and professional and passionate, and I think the more his rep spreads around the industry, the more in demand he will be.
Jared: A successful film career that quite possibly someday includes producing. Jared has indicated, I think, that he has no interest in directing, but he did say at one point that he'd like to produce--to be in charge of putting together all the elements (director, actors, crew, etc.) that bring a story to life.
Kripke: I have a sense that SPN will be the highlight of Kripke's career. (Which, mind you, isn't a bad highlight to have, but I think this will be what he's remembered for, rather than going on to something bigger or better.) I understand his wanting to remain involved in the production, but from the way he talked at the panel, it sounds like he's not ready to let go and move on, even though he's finished telling his story. I hope he trusts Sera and Bob enough to let them do their own thing with the show. But I really don't see him having anything as successful as SPN in the future. I might be wrong, but that's the sense I get right now. (Whatever happened to Chris Carter, of X-Files fame?)
Edlund: Well, Edlund already has a cult following. When I told my brother about what Edlund said at the con, my brother's comment was, "Ben Edlund works on that show?"
"Yes, he's one of the executive producers and main writers," I said.
"He created The Tick," says my brother.
"Yes, I know," says I.
"He wrote the puppet episode of Angel," says Bro.
"That sounds like him," says I.
Hee!
(If anyone were going to write a musical ep of SPN, it would be Ben, I'm sure.)
So I think Ben will find work anywhere they want someone who's just not quite right. Ya know? :)
Sera: I think Sera probably has a solid future ahead of her, too, especially with her writing, and now her being a show runner. She seems to have strong storytelling skills, and can hold her own in a male-dominated industry. I'll be interested to see where she goes after SPN.
Jim: He's an excellent character actor, which means he'll always be employed. He's also an excellent wordsmith. Between his writing and his acting, I don't think he has to worry much about the future of his career.
Misha: I don't really know enough about Misha's career to make any sort of prediction, let alone accurate prediction. He's got the look of a leading actor, but the experience, I think, to be a character actor. Which is a good thing.
*puts away faux crystal ball*
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First of i gotta say if things would be as Jensen described them in his interview i'd be excited too because i;m interested in watching them exploring new sides of Dean (domesticated or not i don't care). And i think Dean and Lisa could be such an awesome theme but did you read latest Sera's interview? That made me sad about Dean-Lisa :(
As for sam... we already saw that sam so i don't see what exciting can be about repeating? I honestly don't see it. With Dean it can be something new because we never saw him like that but we saw sam so... why to repeat?
As for Sam wanting Dean to live normal life - did you read the whole thing? Because as i know it's the worst part of the spoilers and it makes fans mad. I think you missed that part.
What i don't understand is what exciting is about S1-S2 formula? Maybe it's because i never was a fan of monsters. But i thought that underlining theme of S1 and S2 wasn't MotWs but in S1 a search for John and in S2 Dean trying to deal with what John said to him. So i think the same theme must be revealed in S6, right? Maybe i'm getting something wrong but for me a search for John was the same big as their almost non-existent apoc but there always was *the main theme* of the season so i don't see what changed?
As for role reversals i think (from what i heard) they take it too serius. i mean they literally give sam everything dean had. it's bothering me because in the same time they don't give dean anything sam had. For me it looks too double standart-ish. I don't know if you read everything about what they plan to give sam and what dean so i won't spoil you more.
I hope my thoughts and doubts won't kill your excitement though. And i hope i didn't spoil you more.
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No, I don't read the interviews with the writers or producers. I want their work to speak for itself. So anything that's in a print interview, I don't know about. I only know about what Jensen has said in a few of his video interviews (and a little of what Jared has said), or what was said in the panel.
I think there are a couple reasons I don't read interviews with the writers. 1) I don't want to be spoiled. 2) I know things are going to change and mutate over time, because that's how writing an on-going TV series works. I'd rather go in with no expectations and watch things as they unfold, not as I've been told they "will be."
Which is why I loved watching S1 and S2 totally removed from the fandom. I got to make my own observations and draw my own conclusions, without the influence of other fans, or of the writers.
As for sam... we already saw that sam so i don't see what exciting can be about repeating?
I think what will make it different is going to be the way it's played. I think they'll dig into it a little more, and it will now have the added dimension of Dean having a home and family, which will add to the internal conflict.
I think you're getting "formula" and "theme" confused. Yes, the through-line (though I'm not sure I'd call it a theme) in S1 was the search for John. The through-line in S2 was figuring out what's up with Sam. But the formula of S1 and S2 was doing all this while fighting monsters. The eps were not wholly arc-based. The arc was woven into the MotW formula. It goes back to the "saving people, hunting things." That's the formula of S1 & S2. That's what a lot of the fans found appealing about the early seasons. Discovering these characters and their relationship through the vehicle of the weekly case. That's the formula I like. The mytharc-centric eps are okay from time to time, but a constant mytharc without a break becomes overbearing and unwieldy and cumbersome. Light on the mytharc, focus on the adventure is, I think, what they mean by returning to the MotW formula of old.
Some of my favorite, favorite eps are MotW eps: Bloody Mary, Asylum, Monster Movie, Hell House, Provenance, WIaWSNB, Faith, etc. Those are strong, fun, sometimes creepy eps that use the MotW formula and go light on the mytharc, if the mytharc is even there at all.
they don't give dean anything sam had
No, they give Dean everything Sam didn't have: wife, family, home, steady job . . . all those normal things that Sam wanted his entire life. That's part of the irony of it--Dean wanted these things, but never pursued them, and ended up getting them. Sam spent most of his life pursuing them, and never got them.
I hope my thoughts and doubts won't kill your excitement though
No, you didn't spoil me more, and no, you haven't killed my excitement. You've given me a little bit of trepidation, but otoh, I know how thoroughly you are dreading S6, and I think it's too early to dread anything.
Besides, the guy who is my main interest in the show is excited, so I'm excited. Things have to go through a lot of filters between writer and audience--writer, director, acting, editing--so I'm not going to get too worked up over what the writers are feeding the fans. I'd rather wait and see the finished product and make my own decision before I freak out.
This is why I don't read interviews with the writers. I don't wanna know. :-)
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Thanks for explanation *formula* and *theme* thing. I did mix them up apparently. Now i see that MotW thing. but i wasn't against mytharc eps anyway so for me it's not that matter. I don't see eps as MotW or mytharc. i see them as more heavy on character study or less. In other words i'm more interested in character growth then the story itself.
No, they give Dean everything Sam didn't have: wife, family, home, steady job . . .
Maybe (i still don't know how to take what sera said but you don't know it) but it wasn't the main traits i saw in sam. Sam for me is the one with destimy, the one with secret, the one who moves the plot and who's the center of the story. I didn't see any spoilers indicating that it now will be dean's traits.
As for sam i think he can get that all after S5. Why he chose not to i have no idea.
This is why I don't read interviews with the writers. I don't wanna know. :-)
Blissful oblivion, heh? :)
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Sam for me is the one with destimy, the one with secret, the one who moves the plot and who's the center of the story.
True. But I think Dean became the emotional center of the story. Probably not as originally intended, but it happened once they discovered how fantastic Jensen is.
As for making Dean the center of the new mytharc . . . I don't even know what I think of that possibility. That's definitely something I'd have to wait and see play out if that's the route they want to go (which would surprise me if it was).
Blissful oblivion, heh? :)
Pretty much, yeah. :-)
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True. But I think Dean became the emotional center of the story.
True but is it too hard to at least once to write both brothers with mytharc AND emo-story? It's not like there are dozens of lead character on the show. There're only 2 (!!!) so why those writers can't handle only two characters written balanced i have no idea.
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Perfect balance would be ideal, but in a 2-character story with a cumbersome mytharc, I've never seen a mytharc pull of a perfect balance, because one of the characters ends up being the central focus of the arc. In X-Files, for example, it's Mulder and his search for answers regarding his sister's disappearance. Scully is a great character and has a lot of her own story, and is necessary to provide balance for Mulder, but the mytharc belongs to Mulder.
It almost works when both characters are integral to the mytharc, but there will still be one character who will emerge as the hero and one who will become the sidekick. I don't think the SPN mytharc was ever intended to be balanced. I'm actually pleased with what balance they were able to give it at the end.
I think in the case of SPN S1-S5, it was a matter of Kripke having a definite goal he was aiming for with the mytharc--for Sam to turn evil and then to redeem himself by saving the world. Whether we like it or not, I don't think Dean was ever intended to be the one to make the big, grandiose save. He was intended to save his brother, so his brother could save the world. Which is why when they did start saying that Dean had to be the one to stop it, I was wondering what that would do to Sam's arc and how they were going to play that out.
If we look at the overall story (two brothers fighting monsters, saving people, hunting things, trying to save each other), I think the story is more balanced than the mytharc. The sense I'm getting from you is that you wanted balance in the mytharc. Which would have been nice, but I don't think that was ever the plan.
Now, if S5 had been the end of it, it's entirely possible (and I'd be inclined to believe) that both brothers would have made the grandiose leap. But when they were renewed for S6, they had to massage the ending. And I personally, could probably have lived with the show ending as it did, with Dean finding a new life, and Sam watching over him.
Maybe it's because I've seen this happen in other fandoms--the series never plays out to the satisfaction of everyone, and usually, in my experience, it's the fans of the sidekick who are the most disgruntled that their favorite character gets shortchanged. I prefer to see how the sidekick contributes to the outcome in subtle, possibly unexpected ways and see their value to the outcome, rather than seeing them as pointless and worthless.
But maybe that's just me.
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I see what you're trying to say but in the X-files, imo, the balance was way better handled because they didn't take anything from Mulder to prop Scully up. Those were 2 different characters with different background learning to work together and appreciate one another. That's the balance for me (and actually Scully became a part of mytharc with her part of being kidnapped and all that) so i wouldn't say that only Mulder had mytharc while Scully wasn't in it. In spn thinds are completely different.
Whether we like it or not, I don't think Dean was ever intended to be the one to make the big, grandiose save. He was intended to save his brother, so his brother could save the world.
Remember that part of our discussion when you said you prefer not to read from writers? Good, because Kripke admitted in his plan Sam was intended to go evil and Dean was destined to kill him.
Which is why when they did start saying that Dean had to be the one to stop it, I was wondering what that would do to Sam's arc and how they were going to play that out.
At that time i saw no problem with that. See, as i said before i think the real end should be (before Kripke changed it) with them both jumping into the pit as vessels fpr Michael and Luci so it would fit with Dean being the one to stop it and also with Sam's destiny as boy king etc. They both would be important mytharc-wise and no retcon would be needed.
I think the story is more balanced than the mytharc.
Imo, the story is even more unbalanced than mytharc but i think it's PM material.
But when they were renewed for S6, they had to massage the ending
This one i'll never understand. What difference did it make with renewal? If they were able to resurrect Sam why they weren't able to resurrect both in that case? They still could go with what was planned and then change things a bit with bringing back both brothers. What's hard about it?
with Dean finding a new life, and Sam watching over him.
Actually no, this part i don't understand either. Why Dean should be watched?
and usually, in my experience, it's the fans of the sidekick who are the most disgruntled that their favorite character gets shortchanged.
Ah, as i said before i wouldn't that frustrated with the finale if the show wouldn't keep hitting me on the head for 54 years with their *it's the story about TWO brothers and both of them are important* thing. And if Kripke wouldn't said not once that Dean was supposed to be just a sidekick but with Jensen's acting they saw so much potential they changed it and made him equal and blah-blah-blah. So *as a good fan* i believed them and didn't see Dean as a sidekick so of course watching them making him one in the last 3 eps of S5 didn't feel right and of course i felt fooled. If they wouldn't say that, if they wouldn't trying to use my investment in Dean character for their own benefits i wouldn't be upset and frustrated because all would be clear between them and me.
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See, I would have absolutely hated that ending. Because it says that for all the trouble they've had all their lives, spending their lives saving people, they get no reward, no happy ending. They spend their entire lives fighting the good fight for what? To spend eternity in Hell? What's the point? If they had ended the series there, I would have hated it.
I also would have really disliked Dean killing Sam. That's a fatalistic ending lacking in any sort of hope.
If they have to go out together, I'd want them to go out together heroically, and be rewarded for their heroism.
What difference did it make with renewal? If they were able to resurrect Sam why they weren't able to resurrect both in that case? They still could go with what was planned and then change things a bit with bringing back both brothers. What's hard about it?
For me, killing them both off and then bringing them both back would have been a cop-out, been redundant, and totally negated any emotion that was connected to the loss. They're treading that line already as it is. Continually killing off a character and then bringing him back reduces the emotional impact and investment in the fate of the characters. It becomes a joke. Killing both brothers and then bringing them both back would have felt just as contrived to me as some of the other stuff they've done, if no more so.
Actually no, this part i don't understand either. Why Dean should be watched?
What's wrong with having Sam watch over Dean? Like a guardian angel of sorts. Not actually an angel, of course, but a presence to watch over him. As a comfort. Dean has watched over Sam Sam's entire life. Why can't Sam return the favor? It doesn't mean Dean is weak, any more than Castiel watching out for Dean means he's weak. I don't understand why you dislike that idea so much.
And if Kripke wouldn't said not once that Dean was supposed to be just a sidekick but with Jensen's acting they saw so much potential they changed it and made him equal and blah-blah-blah.
Kripke said that? Wow. I've never heard that. I thought that was just my personal take on things. I didn't realize he came out and said as much.
This is why I think maybe you shouldn't read or listen to Kripke until you've decided for yourself how you view the characters and story lines. Would you have viewed Dean as the sidekick if you hadn't read or listened to Kripke? Would you have been as upset and felt as betrayed? I knew going into the series, just from the way the pilot ep was structured, that Sam was supposed to be the "hero" or central figure of the arc and Dean would be the sidekick/balancing character. But since I tend to gravitate toward sidekick characters anyway, I didn't care, and I was so excited to see Dean's character developed as richly as it was. He really did become the character that I could relate to and become invested in emotionally, and I started to view Sam as the motivation for Dean's emotional development, or at least part of that motivation.
So maybe I'm not as frustrated or betrayed because I'm not surprised by the way things turned out and am actually somewhat pleased that it turned out as well as it did.
I do think that the Mike/Lucifer conflict was developed late in the game, that they had no real clear characterization for Michael, and that the whole angel thing was handled more poorly than I would have liked. There was a lot about the angel arc that I didn't like.
But the brother arc? Overall, I'm okay with it. Yes, they left some loose ends and left some things unresolved that I'd like to see resolved, but for the most part, I liked how it ended.
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And right now? What did they get? (not to mention that it wasn't Dean's intention to take something from his lifestyle anyway, he was sure there'll be no happy ending for him). Sam did go to hell and Dean was forced to suffer thinking that he failed his job again.
I also would have really disliked Dean killing Sam. That's a fatalistic ending lacking in any sort of hope.
I can see why you said that but are you sure? Even if the world's fate would depend on it you'd still be against Dean killing Sam?
What's wrong with having Sam watch over Dean?
Because Dean doesn't need it? Because it's OOC for Sam? Because for healthy dynamics they should stop depend so heavily on each other (weill, at least it's correct for Dean).
Would you have viewed Dean as the sidekick if you hadn't read or listened to Kripke?
The thing is i first fell in love with Dean as a character (and never saw him as sidekick in the term's way) and only after some time when i was hooked on Dean i read what Kripke said so his view didn't affect mine.
Would you have been as upset and felt as betrayed?
I didn't feel betrayed because Kripke continued to see Dean only as a sidekick, i felt betrayed because Kripke insisted that Dean isn't sidekick anymore but then it turned out he was a sidekick all that time and Kripke lied in fans' faces about it.
I knew going into the series, just from the way the pilot ep was structured, that Sam was supposed to be the "hero" or central figure of the arc and Dean would be the sidekick/balancing character
I didn't even analized it then. I watched Pilot and i was hooked on Dean. I didn't notice Sam as some hero or something, i was bored with him and if there would be no Dean (or Dean would be like Kripke imagined him) i wouldn't bother to tune in next week. But i realized that Dean wasn't a main *hero* of the story and was kinda ok with it (you know, watch Dean, FF other scenes would work). And if Kripke would keep it that way and honestly say that's a Sam story i'd have no hopes for Dean's growing part in the story.
Right now there's too many loose ends for me to respect Kripke as storyteller and too much retcon to respect the show.
I do think that the Mike/Lucifer conflict was developed late in the game, that they had no real clear characterization for Michael, and that the whole angel thing was handled more poorly than I would have liked. There was a lot about the angel arc that I didn't like.
At first it was interesting and Michael in time travel ep was very intriguing but then with another lie about 100th ep and all that and with relegating both Michael and Luci to whining brats? I wish they wouldn't go there at all.
But the brother arc? Overall, I'm okay with it.
I'm not ;) That so-called bond doesn't let me to gain peace. I didn't see any growth on Sam's part and i saw some degrading from Dean's part so no, i'm not ok with it.
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And right now? What did they get?
Dean gets a "wife" and child. ("Whenever I picture myself happy, it's with you and the kid.")
And Sam is out of Hell. Considering everything that came before, I think that's a lot better than both of them being trapped in Hell for eternity.
I can see why you said that but are you sure? Even if the world's fate would depend on it you'd still be against Dean killing Sam?
For me, yes. Because it's a story, and ultimately, all stories have some sort of message, regardless of how frivolous. Even if the message is "the writer is being silly," there's meaning. And to have Dean kill Sam means that there was never any hope for Sam, or for Dean to save his brother. Fatalistic. As a general rule, I don't come away from those stories well. I could have seen them ending it that way, but I would have hated it.
Because Dean doesn't need it? Because it's OOC for Sam? Because for healthy dynamics they should stop depend so heavily on each other
Of course Dean needs someone to watch over him. We all do. In the physical world, it would be Lisa. Sam watching over Dean from the other side of the veil doesn't negate Dean's strength or independence in the least. OOC for Sam? So Sam can't learn from his life? He can't see the mistakes he's made and try to make up for them in some small way? I disagree.
I didn't feel betrayed because Kripke continued to see Dean only as a sidekick, i felt betrayed because Kripke insisted that Dean isn't sidekick anymore but then it turned out he was a sidekick all that time and Kripke lied in fans' faces about it.
No, no. What I mean is, would you have felt betrayed if you hadn't listened to Kripke in the first place? If you didn't know what he said and then backtracked? If you'd just watched the show without knowing anything Kripke had to say, would you have felt betrayed?
I didn't even analized it then.
Ah. Therein lies a difference to our approach. I've been involved in buddy show fandoms for over a decade. When I see a buddy show pairing like this, it's second nature to get an immediate feel for who is the "hero" (the central character) and who is the "sidekick" (the balancing character). So it doesn't surprise me when Kripke comes out and says Dean is the sidekick; I already figured that out. And it doesn't mean that he is any less important to the overall story.
I didn't see any growth on Sam's part and i saw some degrading from Dean's part
I agree that they didn't show the amount of growth on Sam's part that I would have liked, though I did see some. But I saw no degrading of Dean's overall part. Just a fulfillment of the role in an unexpected way.