Life, Fannishness, and Thespic Infatuation

Can't talk you off the ledge, I'm up here with you. :)

I really dislike the way the show doesn't give a damn how bad they make Dean look. It's always been my least favorite thing about the show. They bend over backwards to make sure Sam never looks too bad, never does something overly violent or worse than some nasty words, but they just almost gleefully chuck Dean right down into the mud, deeper and deeper.

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Oh, after giving myself a few minutes, I have a whole theory about Dean and the torture and all. You wanna hear it?

Okay. (I'll put spoiler space--even though it's not a spoiler--in case you don't.)

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My theory is that Dean was left in Hell long enough for him to become proficient at torturing souls so that upon his return to the living world, during the war with the demons, he would be proficient at torturing demons. Demons aren't people; they're supernatural Evil, and this is war between Good and Evil. So there's got to be a reason for this. I'm also going to assume that the host body is already dead, because demons are nasty like that, and this is war.

Still, it's very disturbing to see Dean like that. On the up-side, Jensen looks like he's going to play it well.

However, I do not want Castiel to go rogue. After the way they've set up the character, there are very few ways they could do that and get away with it for me.

I'm still on the ledge, but I'm not as close to the edge as I was.

It's still three freakin' weeks, though.

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Huh. I can't see this with sound, but the images are...disturbing. Who's the brunette? Didn't look like Genevieve to me.

Looks like the mytharc will be back with a vengence. O_o (Show, please don't make me stop watching you. *peeks through fingers*)

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The brunette is Tessa, The Reaper, from Faith. Or do you mean the one banging Sam? It would be nice if it wasn't Ruby. I'm sure someone will compare her back to I Know What You Did.

Edited Date: 2009-02-21 01:33 am (UTC)

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*gasps* I thought she looked familiar! WTF?!

(also, you mean from IMToD, right?)

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Yes, IMToD. Oops. The Faith Reaper was a tad less attractive. *snerk*

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Just a quick reminder: No spoilers, please. I didn't know that.

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I'm sorry. I thought since you watched the preview you wouldn't mind. I didn't know about her either til I watched. Doesn't she look the same? My bad.

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Hey, no worries. Water under the bridge. But truly, I didn't recognize her. At first I thought it was Ruby. Then I thought meh, maybe not. If we saw her face, it went by so fast that I didn't clue in to the fact.

Consider this along the lines of being spoiled that Meg was going to be in "Are You There, God . . . " I didn't recognize her in the promo stills, but I wasn't looking that carefully. Then I read in someone else's comment thread that it was Nikki Aycox. *shrug*

So don't lose any sleep over it. :-) It's just a lack of communication and mixed signals.

And me being fairly single-minded when it comes to watching Dean. What are ya gonna do? Heh.

Edited Date: 2009-02-21 02:30 am (UTC)

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D'oh! Okay. I see now. At the very beginning.

Nope. That didn't ping my radar at all! I didn't clue in on the voice (which is usually what gets my attention first), and I didn't recognize her from IMToD.

So, apologies. 'Twas my bad, and you had every reason to believe that I would know who that was.

ETA: Also, you're spoiler allergic, too, yes? That also confused me that you would be mentioning a spoiler. Because we're spoilerphobes together, right?

Edited Date: 2009-02-21 02:42 am (UTC)

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Yes, I am spoilerphobic, and it's getting harder seeing all the chatter about recently. I'll usually click on preview links, figuring I'll see them on tv anyway, but I try to skip the directors cuts. It's gonna be a long few weeks.

All this rambling on has delayed my watching of TIH. Damn you preview!

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But the demons are in human bodies. Unless they make it quite clear that the bodies Dean is torturing were already killed by the demons inhabiting them, then the damage Dean inflicts will KILL the hosts.

To me I think it's sending a good message to say "Hey yeah, they're demons so it's A-OKAY to torture them and be AS BAD AS THEY ARE" I don't know, I'm not all that religious but I don't think God generally works that way. Angel of death swooping over and everyone falls dead, that sort of thing. :)

Not to mention, that's what they wanted Dean for? They couldn't have found some human already on earth to do that? I find that quite hard to believe. There are people in the CIA or whatever who probably do it for a living. Dean's devotes his life to saving people, despite some quirks and minor flaws he's been a genuinely good person, a very good person. It's like a kick in the face to me as a fan, I feel at this point.

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Erm...that should say "I don't think it's sending a good message..." :D

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The onlt thing that i 100% like is the way Jensen plays it. I'm not sure i'm buying that they couldn't find another torturer and had to bring Dean back only to torture demons. It looks like the only good side of Dean for the show is his violence. i disagree.
On the other hand being in hell to pay for hiss deal is ok with me cos the deal was a sin and to return and start anew you have to pay your bills.

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Please understand that this theory is completely off the top of my head to help me cope until Mar. 12. Do I believe that the only thing Dean has going for him is violence? Absolutely not. But I firmly (want to) believe that there is far more to the situation than we're being shown in the trailer. I won't venture to guess the specific whys behind Dean doing what he's doing. Heck, for all we know, it's nightmare that he's having while in the hospital (you caught that part, yes?).

So take it for the half-baked "things aren't as they appear" and "Previews Always Lie" theory that it is.

:-)

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Oh, it's ok, i know we only can guess right now. I even say more - there are no new sides to be released so i'm almost equal to you with my spoilers knowledge *sigh* I just freaked out after first (dozen) of viewings. It's thin line right there for them and i'm nervous cos i don't want them to ruin Dean and Cas for me. But on the other hand it's awesome possibility to do it just right. *iz hoping*

"Previews Always Lie" theory
I stick with it cos i'm easy to pleased :)

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That's funny, cause that's what I usually hear the Sam girls say: that the show doesn't pay enough attention to Sam, and when it does, it makes him look like he doesn't care about his family, etc.

Of course, I haven't watched this preview yet, so I may be talking out my ear. *g*

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Yeah well, lots of Sam girls wouldn't be happy unless Dean was reduced to carrying around Sam's cape but I'd rather not get into that. :) At worst Sam is a little callous towards his family at times, hardly unforgiveable, just perhaps a little unlikeable. He never truly does anything really wrong. Not like Dean and certainly not like this.

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Hmmm. Interesting. You're making me want to go back, rewatch, and compile lists of ethically dubious acts by both boys. *g* (It's true especially in early seasons that Dean often stops Sam from doing such things, or if said acts are necessary, Dean does them to keep little brother from getting his hands dirty.)

*thinky thinky thoughts*

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I don't know. I think Sam has come across quite unlikeable recently. I feel it's on purpose, to show his growing darkness, but I'd never say he's portrayed as the perfect, never does wrong, brother. Just my opinion.

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I'm not saying he's been perfect, I'm comparing the...I can't think of the word, the nature of what they have them do. The scale of "wrongness" so to speak.

Sam had sex with a demon(in an FDA approved meat suit:), he said some harsh words towards his brother but what has he really done wrong? What's he done that's really crossed a line? Exorcised demons with his mind? Doesn't really seem too bad in and of itself. Unlikeable doesn't mean "bad", it just means unlikeable.

So it doesn't make Sam likeable to hear him insult Dean, but if Dean's doing this stuff? Is he really wrong for saying it, even though he was directing it at different things? Is Dean not weak for torturing demons, even on orders? Couldn't he say "screw it, I'm not going to do that no matter who orders me to"? I don't have the bible memorized but I don't think torture was usually what God ordered the Israelites or angels do to enemies of God and Israel.

Sure Sam shot a demon in a living body which wasn't threatening him last season but that was brushed over, ignored and in fact both Bobby and Dean have now essentially done the same thing so clearly, there was nothing wrong it(until it came time to give Sam "good reasons" for using his powers when all of sudden the morality of killing the hosts appeared again early this season).

Dean on the other hand tortured other souls and, didn't just torture them, they couldn't let us thing he hated himself for doing it, no they had him say he LIKED it. Sure he was tortured himself for a long time, yada yada yada but it doesn't change the fact that he DID break and he DID torture souls for ten whole years, if he did a soul a day that over 3600 souls, who knows how many times his torture may have been the straw that broke some other camels back and broke them too like he'd been broken.

Do I think they are ever going to show Sam doing something equivalent to sticking KNIVES into someone? Cutting them up? I don't care who is being cut up, that's violent, and vicious and ugly. But Sam's not the one doing it, Dean is.

Dean's "wrongness" is almost always way up higher in the "wrongness" scale than Sam's is. Harsh words and sleeping with a demon I honestly don't think compare to violent, bloody, vicious torture of someone. Once again, Dean's put in the position of being the victimizer.

Sam's darkness is never more than beige, so far, in my opinion, while Dean on the other is made to do this really awful stuff.

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Dean on the other hand tortured other souls and, didn't just torture them, they couldn't let us thing he hated himself for doing it, no they had him say he LIKED it.

I couldn't disagree more. Dean was in HELL. Yada, yada aside, I think it's perfectly human that he turned all his years of pain and agony outward on to others. We have nothing to measure a comparison of Dean's behavior in hell to others. What's the average breaking time? Even if he was "weak" and broke quickly, is it really fair to hold him to the same standard of behavior in hell as on Earth. It is Hell, afterall. Anyway, nothing that has happened to date on Show has led me to think of Dean as a true victimizer.

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nothing that has happened to date on Show has led me to think of Dean as a true victimizer.

No kidding. For all that he "broke" in Hell, it's had surprisingly little permanent effect on his lookout; he's completely remorseful, feels guilty all the time, and tries to atone for what he did. Whatever he felt in Hell, it didn't carry over into his resurrected self. Which...either he didn't like it quite the way he said, and the relief of being out of Hell was enough to change everything; or Castiel did something when he pulled him, a little mental healing to go with the physical....

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or Castiel did something when he pulled him, a little mental healing to go with the physical....

The fact that Dean is stable AT ALL kinda bugs me. Even if during part of those 40 years he was a participant of the torture, it's still a torture to his true nature, and I'd think he'd be batshit crazy after 40 years, either way. I'd love for it to come out that Cas gave him some sort of mental filter to block out the *real* pain.

Sorry for spamming all over your post, Felicia. I'm supposed to be watching BSG. It's all a stall so I can fastforward thru the commercials.

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It's all a stall so I can fastforward thru the commercials.

I understand. As Geo would say, you're letting it cook.

Also, aren't you supposed to be watching TIH? Huh? Huh??????

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BSG can wait til tomorrow. I just started TIH, so quit bugging me!! *snerk*

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sarcasticval.livejournal.com

The fact that Dean is stable AT ALL kinda bugs me
Amen, sister. A-freaking-men.

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But he's not in Hell NOW. It could be excused while he was in Hell, just after he got out. We could say "Well he was in Hell, etc". But we can't do that now which makes what he did in Hell suspect as well. To quote the post by Izhilzha, this takes what he did in Hell and carries it over into his resurrected self, whereas it hadn't before.

That's all I'm saying, they can use all the excuses they want but Dean is still the one cutting someone up.

I do agree with your post below that they haven't really dealt with the fact that he was VICTIM enough. Sure he went to Hell because of his own deal but he was still the victim of horrible, merciless torture for 30 years and that's one reason why this sort of angers me.

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Just tossing something else in the mix:

I re-watched the promo, and that's Alaistair's voice coming from the guy whom Dean is torturing. (Now, how it's Alaistair's voice in a different body, I dunno, but it sure sounds like Alaistair to me.)

Hm . . . .

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Once again, Dean's put in the position of being the victimizer.

I've gotta say, I've never thought of Dean as a victimizer. I don't think I can elaborate any further than that, because seeing Dean as a victimizer at any point kind of surprises me.

I think Izhi (and Kimmer?) made fairly reasonable statements that Dean's statement that he "liked it" is coming from a very subjective point of view--and now that he's back in the land of the living, he can hardly live with himself, knowing what he did. He's trying to make up for what he did by saving as many people as he can. And it's possible that what he interprets as "like" was actually "relief" from pain (inasmuch as such a thing would be possible).

The trailer isn't giving us the whole story. (Insert my chant of "Previews Always Lie.") For all I know, this could be a memory or nightmare he's having while he's lying in the bed with the nasal cannula in his nose.

The more I think about the possibilities, the more impatient I become for March 12.

They're skating on very thin ice and walking a fine line in a lot of ways. So we shall see.

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I agree and i still hope they do that not to whitewashed Sam but for more important purpose. Not to show how bad Dean is but maybe to show that sometimes to do good you have to do something bad? I don't know...

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to show that sometimes to do good you have to do something bad?

And this is a theme that fascinates me, given the right context.

For example, people in law enforcement are often placed in positions where they have to do something bad to protect the innocent and protect the common good. They have to walk that "thin blue line" (to use a cliche), and how do they handle it?

For example, can a (practicing) Christian go under cover in a mafia family, where he (or she) might have to do immoral things to maintain their cover and accomplish the mission--bringing down a crime boss?

My understanding is that one of the screening questions for potential CIA agents is something along the lines of "Would you be willing to sleep with someone who's not your spouse?" Because in some undercover situations, that might be required for maintaining your cover.

So if we're going long with my half-baked theory of Dean torturing demons for information, the question becomes which is worse: torturing a demon, or allowing the seals to be broken and letting Lucifer walk free?

Makes for an interesting--and dark--direction for the show to go in.

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I agree. They're on the adge right now and they can do that right (on my opinion) to show how difficult can be right things to do but they can still stay right things. Or they can go and justify Seshulness of Sam's powers and for it'll be a bad lazy way.

As to your theory one thing bothers me though - i'm ok with Dean's torturing demons for info, i can't get why it has to be Dean? Like they couldn't find anyone else? it's kinda... i don't know they have to based this on something interesting not just let it slide, you know...

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i can't get why it has to be Dean? Like they couldn't find anyone else?

Who else would they get without introducing a new character? Dean spent 40 years in Hell. He learned how to torture from demons. So who better than Dean to know how to break a demon? Does that makes sense?

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I know but they have Uriel as specialist and i think many souls in hell who spent there more time than Dean would gladly accept this offer (or some people on earth - then angels spare themselves trouble to go down there). It just hard to believe that to break a demon you need Dean and only Dean. Alastair said Dean had potentioal not that he was his best pupil.
I see your point i just don't have to think that the only important purpose for Dean is becoming a torturer - the option he regretted so much. I can see this part as one of his qualities but not as main one.
Still if the writers will say us something along the lines like Alistair maybe said Dean a secrets of how to break demons - then i'll believe they (Dean and angels) will have no choice but to ask Dean to repeat his Hell's experience.

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Well, Uriel is more a smite first and ask questions later type of guy. He doesn't take time to torture, he just zaps 'em.

don't have to think that the only important purpose for Dean is becoming a torturer - the option he regretted so much.

And that might be why they've chosen him--because he's not so far gone that he's not remorseful. He learned the skill, but he regrets having used it. They know he doesn't like to hurt people. And they know he's strong, and he's got the added benefit of being the brother of the person who was intended to be Azazel's 2nd in command, therefore having an influence (in theory) to keep Sam from going dark side.

One thing we don't know is how close Dean was to turning into a demon. It could be that Castiel pulled him out just in time--before pulling him out would no longer have been an option.

I'm just thinking that there's got to be a reason why they've turned Dean loose on Alaistair. And right now, this is all I'm coming up with from what we're given in the promo.

Edited Date: 2009-02-24 11:20 am (UTC)

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Sorry, i'm terribly behind and i know that we both already saw that ep but there are still questions. I don't think Dean was close to turning demon, Ruby said that it requires a lot of time and he was there only for 40 years. Enough to beak but not enough to recreate another being.

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Ummm. I'm kinda excited about Sam going a bit darker. I could do without Ruby, but I suppose she's a catalyst for dark!Sam, so I'll have to live with her.

I don't know about Dean with the torturing. I'm sure it's at Cas' requests. I suppose he's stepping up his game, too. The boys know it's getting down to the wire with the seals, so... *points to Shit. Hitting. Fan.*

Come on down. It'll be fine. I promise. *grins broadly and offers pie*

Edited Date: 2009-02-21 01:25 am (UTC)

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*sniffs air*

Is that pumpkin pie? Apple, maybe? Cinnamony, yes?

suppose he's stepping up his game, too. The boys know it's getting down to the wire with the seals, so... *points to Shit. Hitting. Fan.*

Exactly! This I could probably go along with. But they're skating on kind of thin ice. Walking a fine line. And all those other cliches.

*takes a step back from the edge*

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kalquessa.livejournal.com

SAM: You have no idea.

ME: *thud*

Other than that, my reaction boils down to "Hey! Tessa! Awesome!" and "Um...I have no idea what to do with that information."

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